Guitar Too Low in the Performance Mix

[AlsoRan]

At a traditional Jazz concert/jam I attended, the band cooked but when it was the guitar players turn to solo, the volume dropped off and the excitement steeply dropped. Later on in the concert, he turned up the volume or something and finally started to cut through a little, sounding better.

The fellow had an archtop with a Roland Cube, and was mic'd. The band had a saxophone, keyboards, trumpet, and at times a flute, and of course a Double Bass and drums.

During the jam portion, a young guitarist came up and played much more loudly and sounded really good and clear.

I don't understand why they put the guitar so low that one had to strain to hear the notes. I felt a bit cheated because I really wanted to hear the guitar. Does this happen often? A suspicious part of me wonders of the other musicians did this on purpose, the ol' "hold the guitar player back" trick.

[mr. beaumont]

There's a lot of things it could be. Shitty listening is probably a main culprit, rather than intentional maliciousness.

The nature of the guitar though, it is a drop off in dynamics, especially say, following a trumpet or sax. Players need to understand and adjust, and let a guitar player build things back up when it's their turn to lead.

Sadly, a lot of folks are just trying to get through the damn tune and are too busy listening to themselves to care about dynamics/arranging.

[Doublea A]

At a traditional Jazz concert/jam I attended, the band cooked but when it was the guitar players turn to solo, the volume dropped off and the excitement steeply dropped. Later on in the concert, he turned up the volume or something and finally started to cut through a little, sounding better.

The fellow had an archtop with a Roland Cube, and was mic'd. The band had a saxophone, keyboards, trumpet, and at times a flute, and of course a Double Bass and drums.

During the jam portion, a young guitarist came up and played much more loudly and sounded really good and clear.

I don't understand why they put the guitar so low that one had to strain to hear the notes. I felt a bit cheated because I really wanted to hear the guitar. Does this happen often? A suspicious part of me wonders of the other musicians did this on purpose, the ol' "hold the guitar player back" trick.

As a fellow guitarist and an occasional sound man. I must say that some guitarists have a tendency to play too loud. Even though this is most often true of Rock and Blues Guitarists, we often get lumped into the same barrel.

I host a weekly jam and we have to had to impose a "no amplifier" rule. Everybody needs to plug into the PA system which is wirelessly controlled by me. This controls the volume of all instruments that are plugged into the PA system. This "rule" was imposed by the club owner because guitarists that were frequenting the jam would plug in and crank up. It turned into a real "pissing match". I would also add that drummers have this same problem.

I don't think that all guitarists have the "pissing match" gene inside of them, but I am afraid that when it comes to guitarists and volume, those few bad apples have spoiled it for the whole bunch."We are our own worst enemy".

[Frank67]

Mmh, based on experience there probably was a singer in the band who did the front of house mix and thought the guitar was perfect his way :-)

[AlsoRan]

I remember going to a Buddy Guy concert. There was a stark contrast in volume between him and his backup guitar player, who I had trouble hearing. Buddy's guitar volume was loud, and I am not sure if it was the acoustics of the venue or if it was a delay or reverb pedal, but his playing filled the room! The backup guitar player, in comparison was weak and dry.

My buddy told me that' how you do the star of the show, you make sure he is the loudest.

[TH]

As a fellow guitarist and an occasional sound man. I must say that some guitarists have a tendency to play too loud. "We are our own worst enemy".

Amen! Sometimes a player will do a soundcheck at the "normal" volume (in reality too loud) and the soundman will need to take it back a bit. A really good sax player I know of rarely plays with guitarists. I asked him what it was about his choice of sidemen that he works with guitarists only rarely. "The all play too loud! Why do guitarists ALWAYS play too loud?"
There's some association with playing loud and keeping the audience. It's a mindset that's the bane of balance.
David

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Reminds me of...

[citizenk74]

Amen! Sometimes a player will do a soundcheck at the "normal" volume (in reality too loud) and the soundman will need to take it back a bit. A really good sax player I know of rarely plays with guitarists. I asked him what it was about his choice of sidemen that he works with guitarists only rarely. "The all play too loud! Why do guitarists ALWAYS play too loud?"
There's some association with playing loud and keeping the audience. It's a mindset that's the bane of balance.
David

As ingeneri pointed out, it's amps. Prior to amplification, all instruments evolved to maximize their acoustic output. Electricity enabled the loudening of a fairly narrow range of the guitar's acoustic tone. This restricted range was projected in a relatively narrow beam. Off-axis listeners were treated to widely differing versions of the sound, depending on their positioning. Fast-forward to modern sound systems, with directionality problems addressed, and the situation would be different if each player would use their amplifier as a personal monitor and let the FOH system do its work. This is rarely the case.
My personal view is that the volume of all instruments should be adjusted to work with the acoustic output of the upright bass as the baseline.
If FOH is not available, tilt your amp towards the ceiling.

Edited to add: Never turn up to solo. Always turn down to comp.

[neatomic]

soound man is keyboardists brother

cheers

[mrcee]

I don't or like to play too loud and sometimes get drowned out especially with amateurs having too much fun or hyped up electric players I'm not used to so I keep my guitar volume at a little above half way and play a little softer than I normally would during sound check and that way can control it myself if need be. I figure it's always better to have a little of anything in reserve for a rainy day.

[rpjazzguitar]

If there was a PA with a sound guy, then it's on him.

Without a PA, I think some of it has to do with how loud the player likes to hear himself.

I've often been told I'm not loud enough -- and I'm sure it's true. But, I don't like blasting myself. It sounds right where I'm sitting. I try to compensate by moving my amp further away from where I'm sitting, but sometimes there's no good way to do that.

Other players are more comfortable playing louder. Either I should work on that, or there should be a PA.

[ronjazz]

A line array system, like a Bose Compact, distributes sound less directionally, and, for me, has proven to be much easier to balance in live band situations. The conventional amplifier's directionality is a big problem, as pointed out before; most of the other instruments radiate their sound more. Of course, nothing beats good musical taste and listening, which guitarists often lack because they're not raised in an acoustic tradition, and because the electric guitar is used as a stun gun in much of popular music.

[AlsoRan]

If there was a PA with a sound guy, then it's on him.

Without a PA, I think some of it has to do with how loud the player likes to hear himself.

I've often been told I'm not loud enough -- and I'm sure it's true. But, I don't like blasting myself. It sounds right where I'm sitting. I try to compensate by moving my amp further away from where I'm sitting, but sometimes there's no good way to do that.

Other players are more comfortable playing louder. Either I should work on that, or there should be a PA.

You are not the only one that does not play loudly. In a lot of the Jazz songs I have listened to, the guitar was clearly not loud in the mix.

In past threads, there have been other forum members who said they liked the guitar this way. They preferred the mellow, low-key approach rather than the air-filling presence of the wind instruments.

I guess that is why I got so excited when I first heard Unit 7 by Wes Montgomery. To my ears, it was like he went crazy with those octaves, sliding them around all over the place and filling up the musical space like a horn player. I could see him smiling in my mind as he took the song over.

Coming from a Rock and Texas Blues background, this is the role that I am used to the guitar having.

[destinytot]

A line array system, like a Bose Compact, distributes sound less directionally, and, for me, has proven to be much easier to balance in live band situations.

An incredible piece of gear.

[John A.]

I remember going to a Buddy Guy concert. There was a stark contrast in volume between him and his backup guitar player, who I had trouble hearing. Buddy's guitar volume was loud, and I am not sure if it was the acoustics of the venue or if it was a delay or reverb pedal, but his playing filled the room! The backup guitar player, in comparison was weak and dry.

My buddy told me that' how you do the star of the show, you make sure he is the loudest.

Buddy Guy is (in)famous for outbursts of crazy loud volume. He's very hard for sound guys to mix.

John

[AlsoRan]

Here is an example of a nice mix, in my opinion. There is little or no real dropoff in volume when the guitar comes in. He is playing in the higher registers of the guitar, so that probably helped. But I do like this mix. Everybody gets a chance to shine.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've suffered enough abbreviated soundchecks to know that not all buried-in-the-mix events are a result of envy or skullduggery. All it takes is a late load-in, a preoccupied sound man, and an anxious crowd.