Band in a Box Upgrade Question

[jaco]

I have version 2009 (yeah, I stay right on top of things) and not sure what to upgrade to. I'm on Mac and probably use about 10% of what the software offers. Mainly typing progressions from standards to work on improvising. My main interest in upgrading is the Real Tracks. Improvising over the cheesy midi sound is getting to me. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[newsense]

On a Mac you can still only upgrade to version 2013. It would seem that your best options are the MegaPak ($159) or the UltraPlusPak ($299). With the MegaPak, you get 160 Real Tracks rather than the full 187 of the UltraPlusPak, but you are also limited to only 6 Real Drum sets rather than the 29 of the UPP option. You would need to dig around the website to see whether the Real Tracks and Real Drums missing from the MegaPak are relevant to you.

[bingefeller]

Hi Jaco,

I too downloaded Band in a Box, the 2013 version, and am overall very impressed with it. The Real Tracks are great however, like you say, some of the midi sounds are really terrible.

Like you, I'm on a Mac, so I'm guessing you have Garageband. If you do then here's a tip which works for me with most of the tracks on Band in a Box.

1. When you are in Band in a Box export each track separately to a midi file. For example, if you want drums, bass and piano, mute the rest of the instruments in your song and just export the drums to midi, do the same for bass, piano and whatever other instruments you want in your track.

2. Once you have all your separate midi files exported open up Garageband and create a new project. One by one, drag and drop each of your midi tracks and Garageband will hopefully identify them as being drums, piano or bass etc. You now have the option of using Garageband's built in instrument sounds, which are much better than the standard midi sounds built in.

This method doesn't seem to sound so good on all tracks but it might work for you.

[boatheelmusic]

Mac 2014 version now out and on sale until june 30.

[Phil in London]

Mac 2014 version now out and on sale until june 30.

THAT is good news, thanks for posting

[targuit]

Phil, do you use BIAB or notation software? I'm aware that BIAB has some notation capabilities. I only have Sibelius, a starter legacy G7 version ($69 around eight years ago or so), though I could never go back to paper and pencil.

I would like to get BIAB for my MacBook, but I would prefer to use Real Tracks essentially for jazz music. Ultra? Who knows?

Jay

[fep]

I use BIAB UltraPlus and Sibelius 6 (the full Sibelius version). I join the two in Reaper (I'd guess any DAW would do). Great for Demos. I've also used it as a scratch track, i.e. start with BIAB and then replace all the instruments one at a time with real instruments.

Some examples:

This first one is the best example of using both. There is a lot of Sibelius in this one and a lot of BIAB. I used both for every instrument except the Guitar which I played and flute which is all Sibelius. My tune Sadieita, the demo:

https://app.box.com/s/g3pbaq46x1lc8f05v0gh

Chick Corea's 500 miles high, just BIAB and my guitars:

[wizard3739]

I use BIAB UltraPlus and Sibelius 6 (the full Sibelius version). I join the two in Reaper (I'd guess any DAW would do). Great for Demos. I've also used it as a scratch track, i.e. start with BIAB and then replace all the instruments one at a time with real instruments.

Some examples:

This first one is the best example of using both. There is a lot of Sibelius in this one and a lot of BIAB. I used both for every instrument except the Guitar which I played and flute which is all Sibelius. My tune Sadieita, the demo:

https://app.box.com/s/g3pbaq46x1lc8f05v0gh

Chick Corea's 500 miles high, just BIAB and my guitars:

Really nice playing, Frank!

wiz

[targuit]

BIAB created that flute line? Pretty good. This may sound like a dull question, as I have never used BIAB, but I'm definitely impressed by the sound quality on the whole. Couldn't you get BIAB to create solos and just refine them for your guitar tracks? I mean, let the software offer some ideas and then you take it from there and refine them?

If so, this sounds like a super tool to spur your creativity. BTW, nice playing, Frank!

Now how do I convince my wife that this is an essential expense?

To avoid any accusation of hijacking the thread, I am going to start another with this question.
If hypothetically cost were not a limiting factor, what music software would you use preferentially to create good quality song demos? I mean, another thing on my wish list is Apple Logic Pro. But my wife would have me singing soprano....

[fep]

BIAB created that flute line? Pretty good.

The flute line was done with Sibelius. I wrote and notated the flute part. Where the lines sound like they are composed on that tune, that is all done with Sibelius.

The intro - Vibes are Sibelius, Congas are BIAB, and my Guitar.

The next section, Flute is Sibelius, Guitar me, the rest is BIAB

The Tutti section, guitar me; vibes, flute, bass Sibelius; drums and conga BIAB

Various drum hits and conga hits - Sibelius right on top of the BIAB conga and drum parts

etc.

So it's quite the mishmash.

This may sound like a dull question, as I have never used BIAB, but I'm definitely impressed by the sound quality on the whole. Couldn't you get BIAB to create solos and just refine them for your guitar tracks? I mean, let the software offer some ideas and then you take it from there and refine them?

If so, this sounds like a super tool to spur your creativity. BTW, nice playing, Frank!

Now how do I convince my wife that this is an essential expense?

Yes you could get BIAB to play the solos. And beyond that you can cut and paste and rearange the BIAB soloist to make the solo sound better structured. I don't generally do that though. I play in a band and I have piano, flute, sax, trumpet, drums, and conga players all willing to add parts for me.

I did do one where I used the soloist. This all BIAB (except for me). Go to 1:10 to hear one the BIAB soloists, Eric Merenthal in this case:

Tell your wife BIAB is cheap compared to lots of other hobbies, like race horses, race cars, flying, golf. And buy her some flowers.

[targuit]

Tell your wife BIAB is cheap compared to lots of other hobbies, like race horses, race cars, flying, golf. And buy her some flowers. - frank

Yeah, nice try! Thanks for the info, however. I particularly like one flute section of cascading notes near the end of the flute solos. Quite cool track. And I really liked what you did with the Benson song. I was wondering if you can notate parts in BIAB and get REAL Tracks to play your notated solo. Things do get complicated. And I do like the line about other more expensive hobbies. Need someone to sing the high parts? But seriously, those tracks sound pretty nice, especially your soundcloud track.

Jay

[Phil in London]

Phil, do you use BIAB or notation software? I'm aware that BIAB has some notation capabilities. I only have Sibelius, a starter legacy G7 version ($69 around eight years ago or so), though I could never go back to paper and pencil.

I would like to get BIAB for my MacBook, but I would prefer to use Real Tracks essentially for jazz music. Ultra? Who knows?

Jay

hi there, I use BIAB practically only for background tracks, and sometimes I play around with its solo function. I find the old gui quite terrible and hope the new on is better.

Re Sibelius, I have the latest version, but dislike it a lot. Its like the modern MS Word, it simply can do too much, which is why simple things can become complicated. Also, the 'ribbon' is illogically structured, and the program does too much automatically.

If I write music, I use Cubase, the input is more intuitive and I can correct things simply by manipulating the roll, which can be much easier than having all the automatic knock on changes that Sibelius may imply and that are sometimes just stupid.

Sibelius, to me, is a great program to organise and print out scores for multiple instruments. And if you want to instruct the didgeridoo player about his breathing length, I am sure Sibelius can do that too. However, multi-voice note input in one system is definitely not a strength in Sibelius, in my opinion.

[targuit]

Phil, do you play professionally and write scores? The reason I ask is that I had thought about starting another thread with the question as follows:

If money were not a limitation, what combination of DAW (eg, Apple Logic Pro, Pro Tools, etc), notation software, software synths, and the like would you use to create serious tracks? I imagine many of us would want real musicians for serious recording, but to create acceptable or exceptional demos, what gear would you choose?

Jay

[Phil in London]

Phil, do you play professionally and write scores? The reason I ask is that I had thought about starting another thread with the question as follows:

If money were not a limitation, what combination of DAW (eg, Apple Logic Pro, Pro Tools, etc), notation software, software synths, and the like would you use to create serious tracks? I imagine many of us would want real musicians for serious recording, but to create acceptable or exceptional demos, what gear would you choose?

Jay

hi Jay, I would be the wrong address for that, my own practice with these things is not significant. My limited take - it totally depends on what you want to do. A friend of mine writes arrangements for pop bands. The stuff he uses is very different to another friend's, who is in the electronic music scene, or again another guy's tools who makes music for film.

[fep]

I was wondering if you can notate parts in BIAB and get REAL Tracks to play your notated solo. Things do get complicated. And I do like the line about other more expensive hobbies. Need someone to sing the high parts? But seriously, those tracks sound pretty nice, especially your soundcloud track.

Jay

Jay, thanks for listening to my tracks.

You can't use RealTracks for notated parts. Real tracks are actual recordings of studio musicians playing in a certain style and a certain tempo over a bunch of chord progressions. These performances are then broken up in phrases from 1 bar long to 8 bars long.

BIAB software then rearranges the phrases into solos that fit the chord progression that you enter into the BIAB song sheet. The software can transpose the phrases and adjust the tempo to fit the chords and tempo you use.

That's how it works and it is pretty amazing to me what they've created. But you can't have them play your own notated parts. For that you'd want to import your notated parts into a DAW as a separate track and have them played by sound fonts or samples or soft synths.

Jay, are you going to start that other thread regarding what software folks would use for this stuff? (If not I'll answer that question here).

[Phil in London]

For what its worth - I upgraded to 2014 BIAB for mac yd. The GUI is much better, and everything seems to work fine. Some of the real track sounds and accompany-patterns are indeed very 'real'. While the program can do 1000s if things that I will never need, it is quite useful in its core functionality. That includes analysing a song by producing various types of solos and seeing with what BIAB comes up. Some of the licks the program draws out of the hat are stunning and its easy to practice those with the new gui.

[targuit]

Frank, I did not actually post that specific question, as I get the feeling there is not a great interest. I was wondering what any players who may use BIAB or notation software to create credible demos use, if money and total cost were not a consideration. I realize that most players would want to use real musicians for serious recording, but I was pretty impressed with the BIAB capabilities on paper.

Besides playing jazz, I try my hand at composition now and then, which due to the music market situation today, are more oriented towards country as a popular commercial music medium. I get the impression that you can turn out some pretty decent demo tracks with Real Tracks. No one is trying to foist BIAB tracks as the equivalent of 'the real thing', but I think it might be stimulating from the creative point of view.

I like that clip and the others I've heard that you created. Biab, I presume? Nice Methenyesque tone! So what would you use ideally? And thanks for answering my question about whether you could notate a part and get BIAB to play it back using Real Tracks. The examples I've heard are pretty good for demos. It would be nice to compose melodies with decent rhythm tracks and the ease of entering chord progressions into the "magic box". I can also see putting some of the new additions to work, such as the 'bonus' Country Strings thing if I can purchase a version for Mac before the end of the month.


Jay

[targuit]

Mac 2014 version now out and on sale until june 30.

Thanks for the 'heads-up'.

[fep]

Jay,

For notation software I've used: GuitarPro, TuxGuitar, Power Tab,Finale, Sibelius and MuseScore. My favorite is Sibelius. But,I've retired my XP machine and I had the student version of Sibelius (full version, just discounted pricing, even still it was $250). I'm not going to pay for Sibelius for my new machine (it won't transfer, I'm no longer a student).

So I'm going to MuseScore. MuseScore is similar to Sibelius in it's interface and functionality. MuseScore does not currently have tabulate or guitar chord diagrams. I seldom use those so I'm okay with that, especially since MuseScore is free.

For digital audio workstation (DAW) software I've used Sonar Producer, Protools, and Reaper. I didn't like the Protool's workflow as much as Sonar or Reaper. It's about a push for me between Sonar and Reaper. Reaper is less expensive for the home license user (same software, different price), and Reaper's license is for one user multiple machines. I have it on my Mac, my PC laptop, and my PC desktop, all from the same license. So Reaper is my choice for a DAW.

I also use BIAB.

I also recently got the Garritan Jazz and Big Band sound library. It's incredible what folks have done with this. The flow is you'd write in (or play in with a midi instrument), write into your notation software. Load the notation into your DAW and use the Garritan Sounds. Then you'd spend time tweaking the controllers in the DAW. Listen to the samples of what folks have created on the sound links on the following page. Beyond demo's, pro quality:

http://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/


With all that said; I don't know what I don't know. So I can't speak to all the other products available.

[targuit]

Thanks for your considered opinion, as you have more far more concrete experience with computer DAWs than I. My recording setup is:
- Korg D1200 digital recorder, now legacy. 12 tracks at 48 MHz and 6 at 98. No separate pre-amp.
- $69 MXL condenser mic
- no computer DAW yet. I would like to get the Logic Pro Audio to unify my recording equipment with my MacBook, while currently my Sibelius G7 legacy notation software ($60) is on my home PC. Hard for me to get at my Sibelius until everyone is asleep. I could try loading Sibelius on the Mac, but not sure they would play together well.
- Yamaha synth (inexpensive) and Roland GR-20 guitar synth. Latency with the Roland is a problem with recording.
- Sony MDR-V600 headphones that predate my teenage son.

So currently I cannot manipulate my recorded tracks outside of the Korg, and generally I just re-record a track if there are errors. One can comp with the Korg, but it is laborious. I wanted to use my Godin LGX-SA guitar for note input with Sibelius, but that has not worked well at all. So I input in real time with my Yamaha synth. I know that Reaper is a solution for some and maybe I should try it, though I'm kind of tech dazzled by the Apple Logic notion.

The new BIAB for MacBook might be a nice step and isn't that expensive a "toy", though money is tight right now. Anyway, thanks for you opinion and insights. I am glad I mastered Sibelius first, as I like writing the music, but I am intrigued by the BIAB tools and options. And the Garritan type software was exactly what I was referring to as to sound options.

And thanks to Phil in London for his timely update on the new Mac version.

Jay

[fep]

Besides playing jazz, I try my hand at composition now and then, which due to the music market situation today, are more oriented towards country as a popular commercial music medium. I get the impression that you can turn out some pretty decent demo tracks with Real Tracks. No one is trying to foist BIAB tracks as the equivalent of 'the real thing', but I think it might be stimulating from the creative point of view.

Jay

Hi Jay, I wanted to mention that there is an active community of songwriters over at the BIAB forum which is actually the PG Music Forum. They are real freindly and very inclusive. Check out the user showcase:

User Showcase - PG Music Forums

One of my favorites over there is Janice and Bud (click on the song title highlighted in blue in the body of the first post, that's how they do it over there):

DON'T SELL IT, DON'T GIVE IT AWAY - PG Music Forums

[princeplanet]

For what its worth - I upgraded to 2014 BIAB for mac yd. The GUI is much better, and everything seems to work fine. Some of the real track sounds and accompany-patterns are indeed very 'real'. While the program can do 1000s if things that I will never need, it is quite useful in its core functionality. That includes analysing a song by producing various types of solos and seeing with what BIAB comes up. Some of the licks the program draws out of the hat are stunning and its easy to practice those with the new gui.

Cool, so which soloists are you enjoying, and against what type of tunes?

cheers.

[Phil in London]

well, the way BIAB works is that you can input the chords and then chose a style of soloist, so that BIAB builds a solo against the chords (presumably based on predefined patterns that are combined with each other). It is surprising how consistent and well sounding those solos sometimes are, and there are almost always really good licks that one can learn, to any tune that one could think of inputting into the system.

When I learn a new tune, I will always have BIAB construe a solo in Coltrane, Parker and Henderson style. These are not 'real tracks', but midi tracks, so they sound less slick, but the licks can be very cool. The same goes for the 'blues/jazz guitar' soloist, which produces some really nice turns. With the most recent update I also enjoy the Pat Martino solo function, which is a real track and sounds great.

Of course one can (and should) study the solos of real players, recorded on real records. BIAB is not a substitute for those. But BIAB is great if one has already a good feel for a song and wants to upgrade the arsenal of ideas and licks from the perspective of different styles, all gathered in one tool and easily accessible for analysis, comparison and practice.

[Paticia]

Handyman



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