Chet Baker Stan Getz, different improv approaches in 80s tour

[neatomic]

Give up hope all amateur players listening to this.

haha...i get ya, but lets hope it encourages rather than dissuades!

you can hear a very early precursor to allan holdworths legato on that track...parker 51

and here's what allan said about raney...from Interview with Allan Holdsworth

TCG: Were there any guitarists later on that you listened to?

AH: I was extremely fond of Jimmy Raney. Of course there was Joe Pass, Tal Farlow and Barney Kessel. My dad bought lots of records to expose me to all this great music. Joe Pass' album Catch Me was mind boggling. But there was something about Jimmy Raney's sound that I loved. My favorite was a recording called Jimmy Raney In Three Attitudes which I lost during my move from England. I'm still trying to find the recording. He played a tune called "So In Love" and his solo is absolutely amazing.


cheers

[silverfoxx]

As a youngster I first heard Jimmy Raney and Stan Getz on an old Vinyl
record , and thought it was two tenors playing in unison ! The only two
Jazz Guitarists I knew were Tal & Jimmy. On first hearing Tal with Red Norvo
I wrongly imagined the record was at the incorrect speed.
Jimmy & Stan were a formidable duo. later ,Bob Brookmeyer on Valve Trombone
with JR was an incredible pairing. I saw Bob live with Gerry Mulligan in the Uk
and had a brief conversation with Tal on one visit to the UK.
Jimmy Raney remained my all time favourite player, he never stopped over in
the Uk as far as I was aware, although spent a lot of time in France.
His music is still valid today, many try to emulate him. I just wish I could.

[grahambop]

Give up hope all amateur players listening to this.

If Raney’s guitar playing is too difficult to emulate, you could perhaps aim lower and try to copy his singing instead. (The other vocalist is Blossom Dearie.)

[Patlotch]

parker 51 was actualy a classic parker brand fountain pen...

Office Swing, Unidentified Miscellaneous Objects, 80s Patlotch

(In french trombone = paper clip)

[neatomic]

Office Swing, Unidentified Miscellaneous Objects, 80s Patlotch

(In french trombone = paper clip)

great!!! clever!

good album cover!


cheers

ps- sax 'n bone

[grahambop]

[Babaluma]

According to McNeely in the interview on Do the M@th (linked above), Getz bailed on a planned concert and recording session with Dizzy Gillespie and seriously vandalized the borrowed house he was staying in during some kind of fit of rage or frustration (the house of a Stanford prof. who was abroad, iirc). McNeely lays the blame on Getz's addiction problems. It was such a bad scene that McNeely quit the band for a while to get away from Getz. McNeely doesn't say one way or the other if anything positive happened in classrooms or clinics...I suppose its possible that some students got something out of it.

Thanks for the story!

[neatomic]

one more on the raney train...in 1954 jimmy went to france as part of an american jazzmen tour..w sonny clark..also played with red norvo...he immediately won the best jazz guitarist in the most respected french jazz poll...and was huge influence on rene thomas..(a great himself!) who followed jimmy around

heres killer version of cherokee

cheers

[sgcim]

I did some gigs with Vera Auer, the Austrian vibes player, and she said JR would stay at her house when he was in Europe. She said he was trying to quit some addictive substance, and he would be climbing the walls while he was there, but even in that condition, he still sounded perfect when he'd play his gigs at night!

[sgcim]

one more on the raney train...in 1954 jimmy went to france as part of an american jazzmen tour..w buddy clark..also played with red norvo...he immediately won the best jazz guitarist in the most respected french jazz poll...and was huge influence on rene thomas..(a great himself!) who followed jimmy around

heres killer version of cherokee

cheers

I think you meant Sonny Clark.

[Patlotch]

I saw Getz in Chateauvallon in 1971, the year of Ronnie Scott's in London with René Thomas

the concert was calamitous. He practically prevented Bernard Lubat and Eddy Louiss from playing. It wasn't just a personal impression, the press reported on it

The next day, as if to make amends by the public, Getz joined Dizzy Gillespie's quintet with Johnny Griffin. There he was great, the tenor chases were impressive

as a subscriber to the festival, you could attend rehearsals, in full sun, Dizzy in shorts. We asked for the classics of the bebop, he played them with pleasure ...

Chet, I met him at the café near my work Boulevard Saint-Germain. He was at the counter. I slipped near him, but I was so moved that I could not speak to him

[Doctor Jeff]

I saw Getz in Chateauvallon in 1971, the year of Ronnie Scott's in London with René Thomas

the concert was calamitous. He practically prevented Bernard Lubat and Eddy Louiss from playing. It wasn't just a personal impression, the press reported on it

The next day, as if to make amends by the public, Getz joined Dizzy Gillespie's quintet with Johnny Griffin. There he was great, the tenor chases were impressive

as a subscriber to the festival, you could attend rehearsals, in full sun, Dizzy in shorts. We asked for the classics of the bebop, he played them with pleasure ...

Chet, I met him at the café near my work Boulevard Saint-Germain. He was at the counter. I slipped near him, but I was so moved that I could not speak to him

Wow that's an interesting story. I'm sure there are tons of stories out there about Getz' bad behavior. I actually went to school with one of his sons, I think a son from his first wife--not a close friend, he was a year or 2 behind me. I don't think that Getz was around much for that son while he was growing up, but they did reconcile in the 80's and he talked about how Getz had mellowed with time. He (the son) became a concert promoter and tennis coach, and was living in Florida the last I knew.

The only jazz great I have ever met personally was Steve Turre. I sat next to him at the bar of the Village Vanguard during a break in Woody Shaw's show. We chitchatted a little bit--he seemed like a really pleasant, down-to-earth guy.

[Patlotch]

...

great artists are generally not models of virtue. Who cares?

I think that dating Baudelaire, Verlaine or Rimbaud was not always pleasant, especially for women, and in this area, the world of jazz is quite terrible, it was for a long time a world dominated by men, and it is not over. And with it, men's competition against women, and competition between musicians themselves

above a certain level, I guess that no longer comes into play. Coltrane was not threatened by Rollins, nor Miles by Chet, Getz by Wayne Shorter... That's why I don't understand this attitude from Getz in Chateauvallon. The next day after the concert, I met Eddy Louiss and Bernard Lubat in the castle park, and since I didn't understand what had happened on stage, I asked them wickedly: "Do you ever play well?". Eddy Louiss gave me a big smile: "Everyone knows not"

(Actually, I think he'd smoked a lot of drugs, this may explain that...)

[neatomic]

getz had rough life...was on the road with bands at 15!!! got into all that went with it back then...early on...eventually spent 6 months in tough la county jail...was being processed for arrest when his kids were being born..terrible stuff..

but he was still "the sound"...nobody blew the tenor sweeter...maybe since lester..who was haunted himself!!

forget the rhetoric and listen to the actual music

miles was no sweetie either...

just stay out of the way (as much as you can) and let'em blow...thats what they do best

cheers

ps- i thought the best thing about getz vid above ^ with diz and griffin is that he walks on in middle of dizs opening play..and then as he cuts in..he hands diz his mouthpiece cover!!!..what kinda move was that?!! haha...unless it was loaded

[wintermoon]

"

The next day after the concert, I met Eddy Louiss and Bernard Lubat in the castle park, and since I didn't understand what had happened on stage, I asked them wickedly:

"Do you ever play well?".

Eddy Louiss gave me a big smile:

"Everyone knows not"



this has been one of my favorite youtube videos from jump. it gets posted and taken down every few yrs.
Rene w/the father of bebop drumming Kenny Clarke [sounds pretty good in an organ trio, but he was playing w/these cats regularly @ the time, they made several outstanding lps] and the hugely underrated aforementioned Eddy Louiss on organ doing Rene's "Meeting"

[neatomic]

^ classic clip! you can see and hear the jimmy raney influence on rene clearly...non cutaway arch...picking!...

great trio

louiss has a distinctive tone..not as hard as most usa guys


cheers

[Patlotch]

...

I know this record well, and to be honest it's not my favorite Eddy Louiss trio, there is a real style shift with the drumming of Kenny Clarke (the bebop drumming is not very lyrical, compared to Jack Dejohnette's generation...). I prefer what he did with Daniel Humair and Jean-Luc Ponty

or in the beautiful recording in Japan with Humair and John Surman

I saw Eddy Louiss with Daniel Humair in a duet at the Higher Normal School Rue d'Ulm, a scuffling concert! There were 30 people in the room...

it was a period when I never missed Eddy Louiss, I listened to him sitting at the foot of the organ or accompanying Claude Nougaro. I liked less what he did later, with synthesizers, he was sick ...

[sgcim]

Another story about Getz being a bad boy was the time he appeared with the Bill Evans Trio in Europe.
They had gotten together for a rehearsal in the afternoon, and came up with a song list.

At the concert that night, they started playing, and Getz all of a sudden decides to play a song that they didn't rehearse!
The concert was video-taped, and you can see Bill Evans sitting on his hands, refusing to play.
Then Evans motions to Eddie Gomez to stop playing, and then the drummer stops playing, and Getz keeps playing alone for a little while.
Getz realizes what's going on and eventually stops playing.
To make up for what he did, Getz grabs the mic, and announces that it's Bill Evans' birthday, and he plays an unaccompanied version of "Happy Birthday" for Evans.
I actually saw the video tape of this!

[Patlotch]

we can still see that neither Stan Getz nor Chet Baker participated in bold musical ventures in the 1950s, heralding free jazz, such as Jimmy Raney, Jimmy Giuffre, John Lewis, Jim Hall among others

I aim here not the most tumultuous free jazz, but the one that borrows from classical and contemporary music with real laboratories, from Tristano (Sextet 1949) to Gunther Schuller (Jazz Abstractions) through Mingus (Workshop), Teddy Charles (New Directions Quartet)

[joelf]

I'm a huge fan of both men's work.

Does anyone here remember Bob Brookmeyer's old website (ca late '90s-early '00s)? He tilted at windmills a lot, but imparted lots of wisdom too.

Re Stan: (paraphrased) 'X is an improviser, and Stan is a performer---and I wouldn't touch a hair on either of their heads'.

What Getz did to challenge himself and grow was to change the settings---get younger players with new concepts and compositions in his groups. (Similar to what Miles did---neither changed their actual playing all that much. Miles became more chromatic and more aggressive from the '60s on, Stan's sound got more muscular).

And yes, Mr. Baker was the 'purer' improviser. But he had his licks and strategies too. Everyone playing solos needs some focus---some 'glue'...

[joelf]

we can still see that neither Stan Getz nor Chet Baker participated in bold musical ventures in the 1950s, heralding free jazz, such as Jimmy Raney, Jimmy Giuffre, John Lewis, Jim Hall among others

Not exactly: Chet recorded an album with many compositions by the innovative, visionary Bob Zieff---back in the '50s...

[Patlotch]

I'm a huge fan of both men's work. [...]

What Getz did to challenge himself and grow was to change the settings---get younger players with new concepts and compositions in his groups. (Similar to what Miles did---neither changed their actual playing all that much. Miles became more chromatic and more aggressive from the '60s on, Stan's sound got more muscular). [...]

I also like them very much, that is not the point. I made an objective observation, as to their place in the history of jazz and its evolution, which does not detract from their talent as improvisers

that said, notwithstanding their evolution, for Getz in reality according to what was in vogue (bossa nova...), you remove them from this history, and you deprive it of two essential musicians in their time, but you do not change anything to this historical evolution. Comparing Getz and Miles is not very relevant from this point of view, since Miles is responsible for 3 or 4 musical changes that influenced the sequel. Without him, the Jazz would have been different, without Getz and Chet, not really

Art Blakey is one of the greatest new talent recruiters who will become top musicians. However, the style of Jazz Messengers has not essentially changed

[joelf]

Comparing Getz and Miles is not very relevant from this point of view, since Miles is responsible for 3 or 4 musical changes that influenced the sequel. Without him, the Jazz would have been different, without Getz and Chet, not really

I made the comparison only in the narrow sense of both changing the settings, nothing about innovating or changing music. Sorry if that wasn't clear...

[joelf]

Also, Patlotch:

True game changers are rare. Musical change occurs maybe once every few decades, and usually spurred by more than one person thinking alike. The 'great man' theory is overrated.

There are also many ways to be great, and re-inventing the wheel is only one. A musician like Barry Harris is satisfied with the harmony of the '40s-'50s. That certainly doesn't mean he has nothing to say. Many very respectable artists make their work developing and personalizing the existing language. Refinement is important b/c innovators can have rough edges. The thing gets smoother, sometimes, sadly, to the point of cliche'---then another wave of innovation occurs. It's a natural cycle.

But thank goodness for the 'soldiers' who refine and develop---in their own voices...

[joelf]

we are not in a general and abstract discussion, but with regard to my remark, that of Stan Getz and Chet Baker's report to the history of jazz, to which I have been interested since 1966, on which I have written texts and books, and which I think of know pretty well

I am not in favour of cutting this story into slices, the ones found in the stockings of record stores when they were the main medium of this music. The changes are profound, have sociological, racial, musical reasons, etc. They are carried by hundreds of musicians at every stage, and represented by the "Greats" who have had a little more importance at that time, because they have felt and grasped the need to change, and not just themselves, their sound, their goal... A bit like Bob Dylan sang "The Times they are a changing"

this remark came to me without a priori, noticing the absence of Getz and Chet in the moments that marked or directed these changes for dozens, hundreds of musicians including some with unknown names. There are still some, as milestones, discs I've cited, and others. Knowing them seems to me to be unavoidable for those interested in the history of jazz, musically first, and everything you want with it. Plus, it's beautiful music, and far from being as well known as Getz and Chet Baker

there are musicians in these records, almost never mentioned, who participated in these changes without making much noise, I quoted Jim Hall and Jimmy Raney, John Lewis (outside the MJQ), Scott La Faro (before bill Evans' quartet), and it's worth being noted, in a remarkable interracial mix

Agree---especially about the group effort and *under-credited musicians who were a big part of it all.

*What can we do? That's life---sigh...