HARD BOP vs CRITICS

**artdecade** · 02-01-2019, 03:20 PM

Miles being Miles. Love to listen to him play, but probably wouldn't want to have him over the house for a beer.

**christianm77** · 02-01-2019, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

I was actually going to say something similar to the point about Harris or Donaldson having the personal standing to say something critical of Miles or Coltrane that others lack.

I feel I made that point above.... Barry can say what he says, because he is who is. People get really upset about it too, turns them off Barry, which is a shame.

Personally, I wonder why they expect an old bop master to validate their musical tastes. It's how those old guys are...

It's really very simple - want to learn bop? He's one of deep wells of that music. You don't? Then it's not for you.

But I think you also have to tread carefully in interpreting these sorts of comments. These guys knew each other and there are layers of respect, contempt, like, dislike, rivalry, friendliness, jealousy, admiration, and just plain old doing the dozens that are hard for outsiders to penetrate. I remember a discussion here some time back about all the nasty things Miles said in his autobiography, and how hard it is to reconcile this with the fact that he continued to hang out with all the people he insulted, and how many of the people he insulted had only kind things to say about him. There's just a perverseness to the way some people talk about each other.

Yeah! I get the impression that Zawinul and Barry were always friendly for instance - they hung out in NYC when Joe arrived, did a lot of study of Bud together - some stories have it that Joe was Barry's student.

So when Barry said of Joe 'he is no longer a jazz musician' - that's the context it should be taken in. When Joe said 'I didn't want to be an imitation of an imitation' (I paraphrase) meaning he didn't want to be an imitation of Barry's imitation of Bud Powell, it's from a place of familiarity.

And I hear stories about Barry always being welcome on Joe's bandstand.... I think it's super easy to overestimate any bad blood between these musicians, they were just kind of old school... Liked to vibe and haze each other... Zawinul was just as notorious for this as Miles!

Regarding triplets -- agreed, it's one of the defining characteristics of Bird's style and of the one-true bop. I actually think of rhythm as being an even more important distinguishing feature of bop than harmony or long solos. But -- that encompasses the Klook ride cymbal and relatively straight 8th notes, and I think individuals are allowed to stress one of these distinguishing features differently from Bird without being kicked out the bop tent. It would be pretty boring if everybody played the same way.

John

Hippy.

**guitarbuddy** · 02-01-2019, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Since no one bothered to click on my links I'll excerpt the most relevant bits of Brad's essay:

I did click on the links and read the first article. I've also listened to Barry Harris's lectures online and seen Lou Donaldson several times. He's just as salty in concert in talking to his audiences as he was to Meldau and the other young musicians.

Besides Donaldson and Harris we have at least four jazz icons still living who were around when "giants roamed the Earth" - Sonny Rollins, Ahmad Jamal, Roy Haynes, and Richard Davis. They share a lot of common musical ground and I'm sure you know their playing résumés. Here are some quotes from interviews:

Sonny Rollins:

When I say that surely some of his own recordings – such as the 1956 album Saxophone Colossus – belong in the same elevated category of those just about everybody would put in the top 10 jazz performances of all time, he (Sonny Rollins) laughs nervously and says, 'Please, don't embarrass me.' Partly this is genuine modesty, partly the result of a decision Rollins took long ago: 'Being self-effacing and content as a human being is a better style of life.'

Roy Haynes, asked about bass players:

"Back in the 1940s Tommy Potter was great, and Curly Russell was known to be a nice guy and a business guy who was always on time. He was very popular in those days. But the feeling with Paul Chambers, wow. I don't like to start naming a lot of different names or to say who has this or has that. A lot of people like to do that but it's not really my thing."

Richard Davis, speaking of Ahmad Jamal:

"It was a good thing for me to be with Ahmad. The one thing I’ll never forget him telling me at a rehearsal, he said, “Who is your favorite piano player?” And I said, “Oscar Peterson.” You know, who else? And he said, “You want to know who my favorite bass player is?” I said, “Tell me.” I thought he was going to say Ray Brown or somebody. He said, “You are.” I said, “Me?” He said, “Yeah, because you’re here with me.” I said, “God, what a lesson!” I was the number-one bass player for him because he was confronted me being with him. That was a real booster."

I'd really like it if younger musicians would quote these kinds of things and not the smack talk that we hear from some of the other "elder statesmen" of the music.

And Christian, I respect you as a player and a thoughtful scholar of the music. The above isn't intended as a slight on you in any way. Just take it for what it is, a difference of opinion with regard to the merit of the "authority" of Harris and Donaldson for all things jazz. And, FWIW, I recorded Relaxin' at Camarillo for my first CD that I began recording in 1996 and released in '98.

**christianm77** · 02-01-2019, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by guitarbuddy

I did click on the links and read the first article. I've also listened to Barry Harris's lectures online and seen Lou Donaldson several times. He's just as salty in concert in talking to his audiences as he was to Meldau and the other young musicians.

Besides Donaldson and Harris we have at least four jazz icons still living who were around when "giants roamed the Earth" - Sonny Rollins, Ahmad Jamal, Roy Haynes, and Richard Davis. They share a lot of common musical ground and I'm sure you know their playing résumés. Here are some quotes from interviews:

Sonny Rollins:

When I say that surely some of his own recordings – such as the 1956 album Saxophone Colossus – belong in the same elevated category of those just about everybody would put in the top 10 jazz performances of all time, he (Sonny Rollins) laughs nervously and says, 'Please, don't embarrass me.' Partly this is genuine modesty, partly the result of a decision Rollins took long ago: 'Being self-effacing and content as a human being is a better style of life.'

Roy Haynes, asked about bass players:

"Back in the 1940s Tommy Potter was great, and Curly Russell was known to be a nice guy and a business guy who was always on time. He was very popular in those days. But the feeling with Paul Chambers, wow. I don't like to start naming a lot of different names or to say who has this or has that. A lot of people like to do that but it's not really my thing."

Richard Davis, speaking of Ahmad Jamal:

"It was a good thing for me to be with Ahmad. The one thing I’ll never forget him telling me at a rehearsal, he said, “Who is your favorite piano player?” And I said, “Oscar Peterson.” You know, who else? And he said, “You want to know who my favorite bass player is?” I said, “Tell me.” I thought he was going to say Ray Brown or somebody. He said, “You are.” I said, “Me?” He said, “Yeah, because you’re here with me.” I said, “God, what a lesson!” I was the number-one bass player for him because he was confronted me being with him. That was a real booster."

I'd really like it if younger musicians would quote these kinds of things and not the smack talk that we hear from some of the other "elder statesmen" of the music.

And Christian, I respect you as a player and a thoughtful scholar of the music. The above isn't intended as a slight on you in any way. Just take it for what it is, a difference of opinion with regard to the merit of the "authority" of Harris and Donaldson for all things jazz. And, FWIW, I recorded Relaxin' at Camarillo for my first CD that I began recording in 1996 and released in '98.

I think you’ve had some bad experiences with Barry Harris obsessives lol :-)

We are not all alike...

**guitarbuddy** · 02-01-2019, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I think you’ve had some bad experiences with Barry Harris obsessives lol :-)

We are not all alike...

Yes, you're correct, I have. I'm curious as to which recordings you think exemplify Barry Harris's best work. I had one album back in the late 1970s or so, and I've checked out various things online, but since you're self-identifying as an "obsessive" I'm interested to get your input.

**christianm77** · 02-02-2019, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by guitarbuddy

Yes, you're correct, I have. I'm curious as to which recordings you think exemplify Barry Harris's best work. I had one album back in the late 1970s or so, and I've checked out various things online, but since you're self-identifying as an "obsessive" I'm interested to get your input.

Well appropriately enough for the OP I’ve most enjoyed BH as a side man during the Blue Note era, probably reflecting my interest in his single note playing and teaching.

One album that knocked me out was Lee Morgan’s Take Twelve, obv Barry would also record with Morgan on the Sidewinder. I mention that album because someone put it on without me knowing what or who it was and I was amazed by the piano playing.

The albums with Stitt are great too, Constellation and so on, as is More Power with Dexter Gordon, there’s quite a few more, just so happens I’m familiar with that one.

Also with Harold Land on West Coast Blues. You get a bit of early, very bebop Wes for your money too on that one.

His trio albums I’m actually a lot less familiar with although I’ve been enjoying his Tadd Dameron album. To my ears Barry’s playing remained consistent stylistically over the years, so you won’t get too many surprises (though I did hear a thing where he was sounding very much like Ahmad Jamal - wish I could remember the album/track) but if you love sinewy linear bop lines and the slyest, coolest swing feel with a haunting, dark tone, he’s your man.

It’s a huge recorded output, only a small amount in his name. I feel like I’m scratching the surface.

**christianm77** · 02-02-2019, 04:56 AM

Also there’s a fun album called the Basie-ites where it’s the Basie orchestra, but with Barry lol. Not a classic imo the but it’s awesome to hear him with Freddie Green...