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I just came across this recording:
I didn't know this existed, despite being a sucker for all things Jimi and Johnny.
Kind of a messy jam...doesn't really stray far from modal vamping...but kinda cool anyway. Makes me think that reputed Jimi and Miles session might not have been just a fantasy.
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04-29-2018 09:40 AM
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One of my favorite guitar mental gymnastics is extrapolating in what direction Hendrix may have gone and what kind of stuff he would have put out had he not died. I'm always led to the same conclusion: A combination of getting bored playing blues rock and a refinement of his playing would have resulted in a fusion style of playing and recording similar to Jeff Beck's "Blow By Blow".
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I agree with what you said.
Originally Posted by Uncle Vinnie
I always envisioned Hendrix heading in the direction of a fusion style that would be kind of like Jeff Beck too. Both were playing Strats, liked to use their whammy bars, and seemed to be getting a little restless with just blues rock right around the time that Hendrix died.
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Agree with both of you about general direction and reason for it. But I question whether Hendrix had the jazz chops that Jeff Beck had. Soundwise, I think of his partner in the mentioned jam: John McLaughlin, when he was with the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and their album, Inner Mounting Flame. I saw them live at that time, and it was a Hendrix-like assault. Originally Posted by Steven Herron
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mclaughlin at his most jimi inspired...devotion...cut in nyc with jimi's band of gypsies drummer buddy miles...and larry young (lifetime) on organ
cut between his time with miles and the beginning of mahavishnu orchestra
coryell had been covering similar ground
cheers
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Before September 18, 1970 he probably did not ... but he certainly had the facility to learn them, and, already being in the music business, he could have received some tips from the best players at the time. Originally Posted by Phil59
I'd dare say many of us here on the forum started out a long-haired power chord rockers and then turned to jazz when rock became intellectually and aurally insufficient ... and even displeasing. If I could learn to play jazz with my miniscule ability, I'd wager Hendrix could ... and I actually have a picture in my mind of him eating it up.
Hendrix: "Wow, man. So that's a 13th flatted 5th chord? Dig it."
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Good point. Though I think he would have heard it and played it well before he knew what it was called. Originally Posted by Uncle Vinnie
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Agreed. Originally Posted by Phil59
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It would have been better with Mitch Mitchel on drums.
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Mitch Mitchell was the jazziest drummer in rock. Listen to "Up from the Skies" or "Third Stone from the Sun." From what I've read, he listened to a lot of Elvin Jones.
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Agree about Mitch Mitchell's jazziness and your examples. But jazziest drummer? I would say Ginger Baker by far. Originally Posted by Perdido
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I think McLaughlin played a Gibson flattop with soundhole pu on the stuff with Jimi. He's said that he had a hard time keeping up with Hendrix volume wise and it just hampered his playing in general.
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They're both good/great but Phil Collins is IMO the jazziest rock drummer ever, with Chester Thompson (his co-drummer) being right up there as well. Originally Posted by Phil59
Baker did have crazy good skills--I don't think they used his talents as well as they could have been used with Cream, to be honest. I haven't heard his non-Cream recordings, so I don't know if that highlighted his more subtle stuff.
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I have a Baker solo album he did with Bill Frisell, and have heard earlier stuff he did (e.g., Ginger Baker's Army). None of it is particularly subtle, IMO. TBH, I think Mitch Mitchell is the jazzier of the two; his swing feel and Elvin Jones influence are all over Hendrix records. Charlie Watts is a decent straightahead jazz drummer. Steve Smith from (dare I say it) Journey is a great jazz drummer (good enough for Michael Brecker, good enough for me). Jim Keltner is a really good jazz player. I'd take any of those guys over Phil Collins (though to be fair, my opinion of him may be too colored by my dislike of his gated-reverb overuse). Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
John
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ginger baker started out as a jazz drummer...he was a protege (on a couple of fronts) of uk jazzman phil seamen!
ginger hung with blakey...played with all the great drummers in north africa..no compare with any 60's rock drummer..plus, he'd punch you in the nose for even bringing it up!! (a reference to his great film bio)
cheers
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I think Hendrix is a huge disappointment. Given his talent and originality, though well recognized I believe he could have been (almost) as revolutionary as Charlie Parker. I blame this loss on Hendrix's handlers and producers. Mostly the sound producers as what we have is not (in my opinion) close to what could have been. I'm not anti-drugs but I suspect the blasted culture was so prevalent no one could hear that it could be better. This is evident on not only the master takes but the many studio and live jams that have come to be released. If Jimmy Page (a studio master) had been in charge of Jimi's session's just imagine the outcome. I think there was a lot of stoned laziness around Hendrix's sessions to all our loss. I don't think the musicians Hendrix played with ever excelled or exceeded Jimi. If this man had been cared for, loved, pushed, coddled, and challenged he may very well be alive today.
On the other hand If he'd lived into the 70's cocaine would likely have given him a false sense of accomplishment.
I just feel he never reached his potential. I'm really sorry about that.
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Ginger Baker in Classic Rock Magazine, Issue #142-
"Keith Moon as a drummer? Nah. He was good with The Who, I suppose, when he tried to play like me....Moonie was a wonderful guy, but if you're going to judge from minus two to 10 then I'm a golden 10. Mitch Mitchell [The Jimi Hendrix Experience] was a journeyman. He was hopeless. John Bonham [Led Zeppelin], Ringo Starr [The Beatles], Charlie Watts [The Rolling Stones]...they're all three or four"
cheers
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[QUOTE=neatomic;867891]ginger baker started out as a jazz drummer...he was a protege (on a couple of fronts) of uk jazzman phil seamen!
ginger hung with blakey...played with all the great drummers in north africa..no compare with any 60's rock drummer..plus, he'd punch you in the nose for even bringing it up!! (a reference to his great film bio)
/QUOTE]
Ginger Baker was a jazz drummer first and foremost. Whether he was fully tested playing with Cream and other rock groups is certainly debatable. But he had the chops, the credits and, yes, the arrogance. I can't think of anybody else who comes close in terms of "jazz drummer playing rock with big success."
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Ginger Baker is the best drummer since Stu Cooeland, according to both of them.
Overrated blowhards.
Mitch Mitchell was a beast, as was Bill Ward.
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Thanks for posting that video, I had not heard that yet, but had known long ago these Jimi and John tapes existed. I did not realize Dave Holland was with them, what a scene that must have been! Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
A drummer I worked with used to sub for Jim McCarty's drummer in blues band, and Jim had talked about hours of tape from playing together with Hendrix and McLaughlin in NYC. As exciting as that seemed, Jim was adamant that it was really not that good and should not get out. In those days before internet let everything come to everybody, there was little chance of getting a listen. I'd somehow never thought to search it out in the time since then, but it does make sense that some stuff would get to youtube by now.
So I just now searched for some stuff with the 3 guitarists, and came across an interview with Jim McCarty where he recalls another event he did feel was more notable:
"JM:I remember a session in L.A. in a recording studio, there was Hendrix, Buddy Miles, Mitch Mitchell, Jack Bruce, Me and John McLaughlin. That would be an interesting evening. I know it was recorded, and hearing Jack and Jimi play together made it a really special evening. That was a trip. I would love to have that tape. I remember seeing the Mahavishnu Orchestra when they just had formed down at The Cafe Wha? in the Village, and having like the top of my head blown off."
John
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jim mccarty a fave!!! the american jeff beck...in his time
check out this early beck-ian solo on this howlin wolf cover-evil
cactus..who had bogert and appice, before beck BBA
cheers
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A huge disappointment? Well, he was revolutionary. He died at age 27, pretty young. He accomplished a lot in a short time. Undisciplined? Of course. The drugs were probably a factor, ultimately for worse. But you imply that he would have benefited artistically from a tight leash, or if he "had been cared for, loved, pushed, coddled and challenged..." Maybe if there was the right person. But that didn't happen. And Jimi was Jimi. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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Man, that Cactus album cover is proof that rock was invented so that ugly guys would have a chance at getting laid. It's why I picked up a guitar, but like a dummy I switched to jazz pretty much right away and shot that plan all to heck.
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I remember seeing the Mahavishnu Orchestra when they just had formed down at The Cafe Wha? in the Village, and having like the top of my head blown off."
Cafe Wha was a club in Greenwhich Village..it was the size of a large phone booth-if it could seat 100 that was alot-so yeah your lucky to have a head after that...I saw them in los angeles not long after they destroyed NYC..at the Whiskey-mid size club at the time could seat 250 at most ..could not believe the power and volume they played at..
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Originally Posted by Phil59
No, that didn't happen yet I'm always greedy for more Jimi. Death at 27 is a huge disappointment.
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