Pat Metheny on the best guitar player he has ever heard: Pasquale Grasso

**destinytot** · 01-14-2017, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Kidding, right? You guys...

If not kidding, then - off the top of my head - the nicest thing I can say is that he soared with wings of Art. As far as copying, I wouldn't know about that, but some his output smacks of hippie propaganda - a Good Thing.

**NSJ** · 01-14-2017, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lobomov

OK, PG is copying Bird and Bud.

But tell me, who is JL copying?

I think that was PM was getting at: to bring that Art Tatum-Bud Powell pianistic approach to the guitar is, quite frankly, MIND BLOWING.

You can't blow it off so easily, just saying he's copying.

Comparing anyone to Art Tatum is just not done. Tatum and Powell themselves were one of a kind-tour de forces. Who can keep up with them? I realize that Norman Granz did showcase Tatum with other musicians, creating the Pablo group recordings, but the compendium to that was the Pablo Solo sides. I mean, who could keep up with Tatum? That's why, more often then not, he was a complete orchestra unto himself.

I'm convinced more than ever that, technically speaking, PG's complete command of the Chuck Wayne hybrid picking makes it all possible.

Realistically, where can the right hand fingers be, on most occasions, on the guitar? Most often, four places. The pick can cover one base, and the M-A-C fingers can cover the rest. The great benefit of a pick is the ability to play lines fluidly--most fingerstylists can't keep up.

It really is the best of both worlds.

Metheny is saying three things about PG: he is (1) very musical; (2) groundbreaking and original in his approach to the instrument; and (3) combining 1 and 2, it's very very hard to do.

That can't be just poo-poohed so easily.

**Lobomov** · 01-14-2017, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I think that was PM was getting at: to bring that Art Tatum-Bud Powell pianistic approach to the guitar is, quite frankly, MIND BLOWING.

You can't blow it off so easily, just saying he's copying.

That can't be just poo-poohed so easily.

I'm not blowing any of the things you mentioned. I'm rubbed the wrong way when Julian Lage's originality is dismissed on the grounds that PGs playing while less original is more melodical or something.

Makes absolutely no sense to me ... coupled with the fact that I really like Julian Lage's music as said.

**Cunamara** · 01-14-2017, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

originality is important - but you don't want to sacrifice musicality for it do you?

Coltrane was willing to risk that, admitting as much in an interview in downbeat (cut and pasted from Wikipedia rather than from the source article because I am fundamentally lazy):

In "Trane on the Track", an article published on October 16, 1958 in Down Beat magazine, Coltrane spoke to Ira Gitler about the sheets of sound, telling him, "Now it is not a thing of beauty, and the only way it would be justified is if it becomes that. If I can't work it through, I will drop it."

Ornette took that chance (and the jury is still divided on the outcome).

The Grateful Dead took that chance (and the jury, ditto).

The critics and much of the audience in the 40s-50s thought that the beboppers sacrificed musicality for originality. While Bird's playing was described upthread as the peak of the music, it is also the turning point where jazz lost much of its audience.

**pkirk** · 01-14-2017, 06:06 PM

I spent a bit of time listening to Grasso today. He's been growing on me, I'm starting to hear why Metheny would be so enthusiastic.

If you love Bud Powell, it's interesting to contrast these two:

Here's Powell's Glass Encosure

and here's Grasso's rendition:

**Cunamara** · 01-14-2017, 06:16 PM

I don't know how two compare artists and judge their relative originality. I only can say "I like that, it speaks to me" or "it doesn't." IMHO it's not fruitful at all to say that "Julian Lage is more original than Pasquale Grasso" or the other way around. They have different conceptions about music, as far as I can tell, and different techniques but both are amazingly formidable players.

**JakeAcci** · 01-14-2017, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

I don't know how two compare artists and judge their relative originality. I only can say "I like that, it speaks to me" or "it doesn't." IMHO it's not fruitful at all to say that "Julian Lage is more original than Pasquale Grasso" or the other way around. They have different conceptions about music, as far as I can tell, and different techniques but both are amazingly formidable players.

I agree. It’s like comparing apples and rollerblading.

**destinytot** · 01-14-2017, 06:37 PM

Ah - Julian Lage!

I bet these guys admire each other.

**goldenwave77** · 01-14-2017, 06:52 PM

[QUOTE=Lobomov;730440]John Lennon![/QUOTE]

I have this friend who has a weird collection of likes/dislikes. He is a fairly serious classical gtr. hobbyist who insists that classical technique is THE way to play guitar. When I point him to Wes M. or somebody, he just says gee Wes should have played properly---and that he would be better, if he did. When I point out that a lot of classical musicians are not necessarily good improvisers, he's stuck for a good answer.

He also insists that the Beatles were the greatest musicians of the 20th century. When I answer that popularity don't equate, necessarily, to worth...then he gets into their merit. And he brings up John Lennon. Frankly, I am a skeptic on John Lennon's supposed genius. He wrote some good lyrics, and was a pretty good rhythm player, I guess. As a songwriter---hard to tease out what was his, from McCartney's stuff. Lennon's solo stuff is not all that great, IMO, and I said if he wants to look at a real songwriter, he should look at Jimmy Van Heusen.

I said Van Heusen wrote 600 songs, about 50 of them are really good, whereas Lennon and McCartney did 125 or so, and I find their number of really good songs to be much lower.

As for Lennon's solo stuff, I said come on....the stuff that Jimmy Van Heusen wrote and ended up throwing in the wastebasket was probably better than Lennon's stuff.

He's stopped speaking to me since that day. That was about a month ago. When the golf season rolls around in the spring, we'll probably laugh about it.

**destinytot** · 01-14-2017, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I agree. It’s like comparing apples and rollerblading.

I listen to Mr Bickert for pleasure - and Metheny, too. But not PG - though I admire his playing more.Then again, I enjoy apples - but I can't rollerblade.

**Cunamara** · 01-14-2017, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

... and here's Grasso's rendition:

How the heck does he remember all that stuff? Just this one performance equals all the music I have ever learned put together.

**destinytot** · 01-14-2017, 07:49 PM

[QUOTE=destinytot;730430] The only guitarist I find for comparison is the late (great) Roland Dyens - but such comparison cuts no ice in terms of musical style. /QUOTE]
Maybe Lennie:

**Max405** · 01-14-2017, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

The guy is astounding.

well, guys after watching that, I just threw all my guitars in the garbage. And I tossed my airbrush, because he could probably do that better too..

He has stretched the limits of the guitar to point where there are no limits.
My God..

**christianm77** · 01-14-2017, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

well said - because you were getting close to saying that your original point was just that FROM A TECHNICAL point of view he was the greatest guitarist - and i think that is damning with faint praise.

he improvises freely and with real fire and intelligence (to try to sum it up) in arguably the most developed and demanding form that improvising has ever taken. he plays like bird and powell played - with their spirit and their musical intelligence.

the sex pistols were arguably more original than pg is - but they are, surely, a lot less musical.

it seems to me that bird's playing represents the high point of the music - this seems obvious to me i must say, it always has. so its very hard for me to say whether its more impressive to play so much like bird on the guitar as pg does (with bird's facility as well as his fire and focus) - or to play like say julian lage in a style that is fresh (has some originality) but it musically much less interesting than bird and powell etc.

originality is important - but you don't want to sacrifice musicality for it do you?

(but this is not an easy question - i don't want to sound like the answer is obvious.)

Isn't it great that we don't have to make these calls and can just listen to these players on their own terms :-)

So no I don't think PG is the greatest but I don't think anyone is the greatest. He is great.

Advanced players develop their own approach and their own art.

**JakeAcci** · 01-14-2017, 09:59 PM

Anybody else noticed this guy has an unusually long pinky? Seems to use it to his advantage.

**Cunamara** · 01-15-2017, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Anybody else noticed this guy has an unusually long pinky? Seems to use it to his advantage.

Yes, and amazingly flexible, stretchy hands that make that guitar look like it's a Byrdland. He's got a reach like Tal Farlow and Allan Holdsworth.

**Greentone** · 01-15-2017, 09:08 PM

PG has long hands, BIG CHOPS, and great musicality. I hope he doesn't suffer the fate of guys like Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum--or a young Wynton Marsalis, for that matter--each of whom got clobbered for having great "technical virtuosity." Critics supposed that this came _at the expense_ of musicality. BS! Peterson, Tatum, and Marsalis each displayed (and display in Marsalis' case) tremendous warmth, feel, and musicality...as well as spectacular chops.

Probably no artist got pooh-poohed more for this than the late pianist Bobby Enriquez. Brought from Asia to the attention of US audiences by Dizzy Gillespie, Enriquez was a sensational pianist with Tatum-plus chops. Yet, he was a very sensitive player. Critics, however, never seem to appreciate anyone with chops at that level.

Grasso is the complete package. I hope he succeeds mightily. Doubtless, I will always listen to Jim Hall more, but this doesn't take away one iota from PG's staggering talent.

**christianm77** · 01-15-2017, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

PG has long hands, BIG CHOPS, and great musicality. I hope he doesn't suffer the fate of guys like Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum--or a young Wynton Marsalis, for that matter--each of whom got clobbered for having great "technical virtuosity." Critics supposed that this came _at the expense_ of musicality. BS! Peterson, Tatum, and Marsalis each displayed (and display in Marsalis' case) tremendous warmth, feel, and musicality...as well as spectacular chops.

Those guys could swing like anything.

Probably no artist got pooh-poohed more for this than the late pianist Bobby Enriquez. Brought from Asia to the attention of US audiences by Dizzy Gillespie, Enriquez was a sensational pianist with Tatum-plus chops. Yet, he was a very sensitive player. Critics, however, never seem to appreciate anyone with chops at that level.

I don't know him, but if we was with Dizzy, man could probably swing. Will check him out!

Critics intellectualise everything.

Grasso is the complete package. I hope he succeeds mightily. Doubtless, I will always listen to Jim Hall more, but this doesn't take away one iota from PG's staggering talent.

Well Jim Hall could really swing. (Notice a theme? ;-))

IMVHO PG needs a few years in the oven. We've seen the brilliance of an amazing young musician, but this is the beginning of the journey. I'll watch his career with interest.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-15-2017, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I think that was PM was getting at: to bring that Art Tatum-Bud Powell pianistic approach to the guitar is, quite frankly, MIND BLOWING.

You can't blow it off so easily, just saying he's copying.

I agree. Many years ago--at least 20---I went to a Jack Wilkins clinic / concert in Miami. He talked about his great despair at being unable to do more pianistic things on guitar. He thought of quitting. I'm glad he didn't. Jack is a great player. But what Pasquale is doing is not just "copying" Powell; he's doing on a guitar what Powell did on a piano. (It's hard enough to do that on piano----has anyone since Powell surpassed Powell playing bebop on piano?---but on the guitar???)

NSJ is right: it's mind blowing.

**pkirk** · 01-15-2017, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I don't know him, but if we was with Dizzy, man could probably swing. Will check him out!

great solo by Bruce Forman too.

piano solo at 4:00

**LouieKing** · 03-20-2017, 07:27 AM

I think what makes Bud Powell and Charlie Parker so great is the creativity of their improvisation, the rhythm, and the sound coming out of their instrument. Pat Metheny definitely has all three of these things and so do all of the jazz pioneers (of which he is definitely one).

Virtuosity on their chosen instrument is certainly exciting and augments these three things but isn't of itself a defining characteristic.

Pasquale has a lot of creativity in his lines on that blues video and is definitely one of the more impressive instrumentalists I've ever seen!

To me his sound is pretty awful and he doesn't have the best time IMO.... I'd love to see him playing with a really swinging rhythm section and develop a better sound.

Will definitely watch him keenly though!

**christianm77** · 03-20-2017, 07:42 AM

Soundwise to me it sounds like that soupy sort of sound you get out of a good archtop and an acoustic amp turned up to gig volume.... Never the clearest sound, TBH he'd be better off with his old 175 for live work.

I certainly don't think it's a reflection on his sound production or playing, which is pretty beautiful sounding to me on those occasions when he is playing without much amplification.

He probably has that one (expensive and special) guitar and uses it for everything tho. Bet it sounds AMAZING in the studio. It's a fantastic guitar...

Just what works in the studio and in your practice room is not the same as what works in a noisy room full of diners, or a band with drums...

**NSJ** · 03-20-2017, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Soundwise to me it sounds like that soupy sort of sound you get out of a good archtop and an acoustic amp turned up to gig volume.... Never the clearest sound, TBH he'd be better off with his old 175 for live work.

.

I only play a few gigs a year, but even from my limited experience, there is that AWFUL feeling when you know you have to crank up the volume on the guitar and PAs and all the beautiful sound you work so hard to achieve, calibrated with just a little bit of volume set at the perfect level that creates such a wonderful and beautiful tone...essentially is flushed down the toilet.

On his instruction videos, Pasquale sounds FANTASTIC. the new ones have the Trenier equipped with the Bitloff suspended CC clone. I mean, he demos a frickin' C scale and the tone alone makes it worthwhile. I am going to put that facsimile suspended on my two best guitars. It's an exceptional pickup.

My world is entirely inhabited by modern CC and DeArmond RC 1100 knock-offs. There is no need to go past 1955 or so for your electrification needs.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-20-2017, 08:29 AM

That's when you play the tele and a little tube amp and say "the hell with it, this sounds great too."

**fasstrack** · 03-20-2017, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by NSJ

"The best guitar player I’ve heard in maybe my entire life is floating around now, Pasquale Grasso. This guy is doing something so amazingly musical and so difficult.Mostly what I hear now are guitar players who sound a little bit like me mixed with a little bit of Sco and a little bit of Frisell, using a couple of amps onstage with a little bit of delay. Then they say they don’t listen to me or Sco or Frisell; all they listen to is Grant Green. I kind of go, “Really?” (laughs) What’s interesting about Pasquale is that he doesn’t sound anything like that at all. In a way, it is a little bit of a throwback, because his model – which is an incredible model to have – is Bud Powell. He has somehow captured the essence of that language from piano onto guitar in a way that almost nobody has ever addressed. He’s the most significant new guy I’ve heard in many, many years. That’s exciting for me."

-Pat Metheny

I won't criticize Pasquale b/c he's my friend, and a very sweet, sincere guy. He's a great and accomplished guitarist, as Mr. Humility points out. I do think he has things to work on---as we all do...