Charlie Christian inspired players

**dimrun** · 08-08-2015, 08:15 AM

It is always said that most jazz guitar players that followed Charlie, in the 40s and 50s, were heavily influenced by him, but which are the ones who sound most like Charlie?
To my ears, Mary Osborne, who met Charlie and learnt directly from him. is the closest.
Interestingly, a reissue - with bonus tracks - of one of Mary's most sought after albums is being re-released in September.

A Girl & Her Guitar by MARY OSBORNE: Amazon.co.uk: Music

Look Mary up on Youtube. She's terrific!

**Steve Z** · 08-08-2015, 09:00 AM

I have two albums of hers.... Fantastic! Good to see that "A Girl and Her Guitar" is going to be released on CD finally. Too bad only as an import as the U.S. Amazon has it listed for $20.99, still worth it to me.

It does seem odd that a U.S. company hasn't obtained the right to release it.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-08-2015, 09:08 AM

Here's a nice clip of Mary playing on a TV show in the late '50s. Definitely got it going on!
I want to hear more of her.

As for the question in the OP, Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel are my favorite Christian-inspired players of that era.

**pubylakeg** · 08-08-2015, 01:23 PM

As mentioned in the OP, Charlie Christian was pretty much the definitive influence on every Jazz guitarist throughout the 40's and 50's.

Barney Kessel actually cited Charlie as "my sole influence". It would have to be said though, that BK never set out to be a copyist, and fairly rapidly moved Charlie's concepts into something considerably more advanced, both harmonically and melodically.

In terms of "who sounds most like Charlie", it is interesting to listen to some of Kessel's recordings from the '40s.
The soundtrack to Gjon Mili's film "Jammin' the Blues" ,from 1944,has some great early Kessel solos.
Jammin' The Blues - Film Soundtrack & More- - Lester Young - Blues Sounds

Also worth hearing, is his work with Artie Shaw, including "The Grabtown Grapple" from 1945.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-08-2015, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

Barney Kessel actually cited Charlie as "my sole influence". It would have to be said though, that BK never set out to be a copyist, and fairly rapidly moved Charlie's concepts into something considerably more advanced, both harmonically and melodically.

Great stuff. Thanks. I was surprised to discover when reading a bio of Kessel that his comping for Julie London (-just her voice and his guitar) had a big influence on Brazilian musicians. Supposedly, when they met, Jobim thanked Kessel for all he learned from him!

**Irez87** · 08-08-2015, 10:54 PM

Jim Hall? Jimmy Raney?

**MarkRhodes** · 08-09-2015, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Jim Hall? Jimmy Raney?

They came later. And don't sound much like Charlie, IMHO.

**neatomic** · 08-09-2015, 06:55 PM

actually jimmy raney was a contemporary of herb ellis…he was playing with name bands in the late 40's…& was one of the few that actually used a gibson eh150 like his inspiration cc, from the start and throughout….i believe it was eventually ripped off in a nyc cab... raneys known to have said when he first heard charlie christian- he felt like fainting!!!

cheers

**Jehu** · 08-09-2015, 08:35 PM

Oscar Moore has always struck me as someone that CC might have sounded like after about 20 more years of playing. (Not because he was better, but because there was a bit more variety in his playing, more adventure, more subtlety, and a taming of the relentless CC drive.)

**pubylakeg** · 08-09-2015, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jehu

Oscar Moore has always struck me as someone that CC might have sounded like after about 20 more years of playing. (Not because he was better, but because there was a bit more variety in his playing, more adventure, more subtlety, and a taming of the relentless CC drive.)

That's an interesting point. I have often wondered why CC gets so much recognition or credit as being the founder of electric guitar, considering Oscar Moore was also established and prominently featured on record with Nat Cole by '39.
I was actually speaking to a sax player about this very subject last week. His opinion was that the public consciousness only has room for one name within such a role. Pity. Oscar was a fabulous guitarist, and still doesn't get mentioned nearly enough.

**Petimar** · 08-09-2015, 10:44 PM

Wes Montgomery. He got his first gig when a club owner was walking down the street and heard Wes playing Charlie Christian solos in his house. Apparently, that is all he knew early on.

Of course he went on to develop his own style, but you can hear Charlie's influence there, especially in his blues tunes.

**entresz** · 08-09-2015, 11:56 PM

Oscar Moore is definitely one of the most underrated players. Those early recordings with Nat King Cole trio recordings are absolutely incredible. Great example of piano and guitar locking in perfectly. You can hear heaps of CC in his playing, even a bit of Django Reinhardt, but he has his own sound and style.

**Cunamara** · 08-10-2015, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

That's an interesting point. I have often wondered why CC gets so much recognition or credit as being the founder of electric guitar, considering Oscar Moore was also established and prominently featured on record with Nat Cole by '39.
I was actually speaking to a sax player about this very subject last week. His opinion was that the public consciousness only has room for one name within such a role. Pity. Oscar was a fabulous guitarist, and still doesn't get mentioned nearly enough.

A couple of months ago I realized that Oscar Moore was probably the first jazz guitarist that I was exposed to, since my parents were both big fans of The Nat King Cole trio and had many of his records. Oscar may very well be a significant Albeit subconscious influence on my playing.

I think that Moore's exposure with the trio backing a vocalist put him in a somewhat different light than Charlie Christian, who was playing with a primarily instrumental band and was featured on an equal footing with other soloists, for the most part. That said, however, Oscar Moore probably established the template for the role of a guitarist and a small trio. Those arrangements with the Nat King Cole trio are really tight.

There was another thread on the forum here which showed that Oscar Moore was one of the first if not the very first jazz guitarist to play with a Telecaster.

**entresz** · 08-10-2015, 01:20 AM

This blog has a photo of Oscar's tele as well as a photo of him with it.
Very fascinating stuff.
A Modernist: Oscar Moore and Fender (1951)

destinytot · 08-10-2015, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by entresz

This blog has a photo of Oscar's tele as well as a photo of him with it.
Very fascinating stuff.
A Modernist: Oscar Moore and Fender (1951)

It apears that Oscar Moore's son is trying to retrieve that tele.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-10-2015, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by entresz

Oscar Moore is definitely one of the most underrated players. Those early recordings with Nat King Cole trio recordings are absolutely incredible. Great example of piano and guitar locking in perfectly. You can hear heaps of CC in his playing, even a bit of Django Reinhardt, but he has his own sound and style.

Agreed. There's a thread here about Oscar Moore.

Oscar Moore - the most ignored jazz guitarist?

**MarkRhodes** · 08-10-2015, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

That's an interesting point. I have often wondered why CC gets so much recognition or credit as being the founder of electric guitar, considering Oscar Moore was also established and prominently featured on record with Nat Cole by '39.
I was actually speaking to a sax player about this very subject last week. His opinion was that the public consciousness only has room for one name within such a role. Pity. Oscar was a fabulous guitarist, and still doesn't get mentioned nearly enough.

Much as I appreciate Oscar, I think the answer to your question is that, for starters, Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel cited Charlie as the biggest influence on their playing. Charlie had more of a featured spot in the Benny Goodman Sextet than Oscar did in the Nat Cole trio. (Curiously, though, both Ellis and Kessel played in Oscar Peterson's drummerless trio).

destinytot · 08-10-2015, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Great stuff. Thanks. I was surprised to discover when reading a bio of Kessel that his comping for Julie London (-just her voice and his guitar) had a big influence on Brazilian musicians. Supposedly, when they met, Jobim thanked Kessel for all he learned from him!

This is almost a lesson from Kessel. (I really like Julie London's singing style - especially her bold use of lower register.)

destinytot · 08-10-2015, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Much as I appreciate Oscar, I think the answer to your question is that, for starters, Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel cited Charlie as the biggest influence on their playing. Charlie had more of a featured spot in the Benny Goodman Sextet than Oscar did in the Nat Cole trio. (Curiously, though, both Ellis and Kessel played in Oscar Peterson's drummerless trio).

I imagine CC had a more varied palette than recordings suggests. In his playing, I hear the same 'confidence and authority' as in those who cite him as their biggest influence. That's what I admire about his playing.

**monk** · 08-10-2015, 11:16 AM

Oscar Moore was recording with Nat Cole and was winning Downbeat jazz polls before Christian got the job with Benny Goodman. However, a careful listen to the early King Cole Trio records, 1937-39, show that Moore was using an acoustic guitar. Christian gets recognition for being the "Godfather of the Electric Guitar" because he got the national recognition from being in Goodman's band even though George Barnes and Floyd Smith had recorded with electric guitars first. After Christian made his debut with Goodman in 1939, Moore saw the writing on the wall and switched to electric guitar.

destinytot · 08-10-2015, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I was surprised to discover when reading a bio of Kessel that his comping for Julie London (-just her voice and his guitar) had a big influence on Brazilian musicians.

That makes perfect sense to me. I started out on nylon - bossa nova, with fingers, chords only - and eventually recognised the sound of Kessel's 'grips' from half a dozen albums. (At that time, I'd never held a pick - and didn't think I ever would... but here I am, playing on nylon with a pick.)

**sgcim** · 08-11-2015, 02:22 AM

Tal farlow, Jimmy Raney, Wes, Kessel and Ellis all cited CC as their first, strongest influence.

They all then moved in Charlie Parker's direction, but swing players like Remo Palmieri and Chris Flory seemed to stay with CC.

**monk** · 08-11-2015, 12:42 PM

A number of swing guitarists who were influenced by Charlie Christian but didn't move in the bop direction ended up playing in Jump-Blues and R&B bands. Three who immediately come to mind are Bill Jennings, Billy Butler and Carl Hogan.

**wintermoon** · 08-11-2015, 12:53 PM

Tiny Grimes

**MarkRhodes** · 08-11-2015, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by monk

A number of swing guitarists who were influenced by Charlie Christian but didn't move in the bop direction ended up playing in Jump-Blues and R&B bands. Three who immediately come to mind are Bill Jennings, Billy Butler and Carl Hogan.

I love that direction! I heard that kind of guitar playing before I actually heard Charlie Christian. It's always run deep with me. (And one reason I've always thought that part of being a good guitar player was being a strong, driving rhythm player.)