George Van Eps Tuning and strings

[Old Guy 39]

Been playing and enjoying Jazz for a long time, but even at 74 I'm still trying to learn new stuff.
I keep reading conflicting info on how George Van Eps tuned and strung his Gretch seven string. Does anyone have more info on that. He had a fantastic sound that I'd like to try. Also where do you get the "Low A string" he supposedly used?

[monk]

Originally, Van Eps tuned A, E, A, D, G, B, E. In an interview in 1981, he said that he was tuning a whole step lower
G, D, G, C, F, A, D. I think his seventh string was made by E & O Mari and was between .075 and .080.

[setemupjoe]

Bucky Pizzarelli also tunes his 7th string to the low A like this. He showed me how he voices his chords and said any chord with the bass note on the 5th string he could just move over to the 7th string so it was actually pretty easy to convert from a 6 string neck to a 7 string.

[Eddie Lang]

About half way down the page, there is a section called "Birth of the seven string guitar".

George Van Eps - Seven Strings of Memories

Also where do you get the "Low A string" he supposedly used?

7 String Guitar Strings

Bucky plays the LaBella.

[Old Guy 39]

Hey thanks! I really enjoyed that article by his daughter, quite the guy! I just pointed him out to my Grandson who is also an aspiring Jazz guitarist. Good stuff

Stan

[monk]

About half way down the page, there is a section called "Birth of the seven string guitar".

George Van Eps - Seven Strings of Memories



7 String Guitar Strings

Bucky plays the LaBella.

Van Eps played the tape wound LaBellas also but they only offer one jazz set at this source. The .014-.079.

The Newtone sets gauged at .013-.085 and .012-.072 seem a bit more user friendly on the higher strings.

It's disappointing that most of these seven string sets are gauged in the .009 or .010 range bottoming out at around .052. Heck, I use a .052 for a sixth string.

[Eddie Lang]

Van Eps played the tape wound LaBellas also but they only offer one jazz set at this source. The .014-.079.

The Newtone sets gauged at .013-.085 and .012-.072 seem a bit more user friendly on the higher strings.

It's disappointing that most of these seven string sets are gauged in the .009 or .010 range bottoming out at around .052. Heck, I use a .052 for a sixth string.

I know! What's the point, if you don't get more bottom? Unless one uses a 0.052 tuned low A, but that would be pretty floppy, I suppose.

Some of the six string sets that I use have a 0.059 sixth string...

I'd love to jump one day and get a seven string guitar. The problem is that no one carries them around here and I never had the chance to try one. It's a big gamble, buying online (and internationally) a type of instrument that you have never tried... Still, if I had not just gotten an L-7 a few weeks ago, I might have succumbed to the Moll Classic seven string currently at Archtop.com or the Dale Unger that was there about a month ago...

I love what Alden and the Pizzarellis do with them.

Maybe I should try a set and use strings two to seven on a six string guitar, just to see -- although it wouldn't feel like the width of a seven string neck, it might give an idea. Has anyone here tried that before? I wonder if that's what Kenny Poole did on a Cal Collins album (Milestones, 1974) on which he played some kind of bass but on a regular six string archtop guitar.

[monk]

I know! What's the point, if you don't get more bottom? Unless one uses a 0.052 tuned low A, but that would be pretty floppy, I suppose.

Some of the six string sets that I use have a 0.059 sixth string...

I'd love to jump one day and get a seven string guitar. The problem is that no one carries them around here and I never had the chance to try one. It's a big gamble, buying online (and internationally) a type of instrument that you have never tried... Still, if I had not just gotten an L-7 a few weeks ago, I might have succumbed to the Moll Classic seven string currently at Archtop.com or the Dale Unger that was there about a month ago...

I love what Alden and the Pizzarellis do with them.

Maybe I should try a set and use strings two to seven on a six string guitar, just to see -- although it wouldn't feel like the width of a seven string neck, it might give an idea. Has anyone here tried that before? I wonder if that's what Kenny Poole did on a Cal Collins album (Milestones, 1974) on which he played some kind of bass but on a regular six string archtop guitar.

Richard,
You're too sharp. That's exactly what Van Eps did to get used to the low A before he had the neck replaced on his 1933 Epiphone Deluxe.

Kenny Poole used heavy strings and tuned down four half steps to C.

Regards,
Jerome

[Eddie Lang]

Thanks, Jerome. I had been wondering for quite a while about Poole on Milestones.

Next time that I order strings, I will get a set of either the La Bella's or the Newtone's. I know and I am comfortable with the Newtone Archtop, but the La Bella are those used by the Pizzarellis (John said in one of his instructional videos that he only uses them because he steals them from Bucky -- I'm not sure how much truth there is in that story, sounds like one of his jokes).

Learning to play with the low A could become quite an adventure, I predict. -- And much cheaper than buying another guitar, though it may come to that if I get the new thing right.

EDIT TO ADD: have you ever met Poole or Collins, Jerome? They were great guitarists, but from what I read and heard about them, it seems like they were fantastic persons too.

[3625]

Don't know if this is any help but I remembered this from Jonathan Stout's Swing Guitar Blog

Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five, featuring Hilary Alexander - Swing Guitar Blog - "Chicken a la Swing" ala Japanese

Jonathan mentions Yuji Kamihigashi was experimenting with this tuning: A,E,D,G,B,E - two bass strings of a seven string, top four strings of a 6 string

[monk]

Thanks, Jerome. I had been wondering for quite a while about Poole on Milestones.

Next time that I order strings, I will get a set of either the La Bella's or the Newtone's. I know and I am comfortable with the Newtone Archtop, but the La Bella are those used by the Pizzarellis (John said in one of his instructional videos that he only uses them because he steals them from Bucky -- I'm not sure how much truth there is in that story, sounds like one of his jokes).

Learning to play with the low A could become quite an adventure, I predict. -- And much cheaper than buying another guitar, though it may come to that if I get the new thing right.

EDIT TO ADD: have you ever met Poole or Collins, Jerome? They were great guitarists, but from what I read and heard about them, it seems like they were fantastic persons too.

GVE had a seven string classic guitar that Epiphone built for him. He used it to play at home as a practice guitar. In the 1981 interview that Van Eps did for Guitar Player, he said that he liked the feel of classicl guitar strings and tuned down a whole step on his archtop with the tape wound strings to approximate that feel.

I've used the LaBella tape wound strings (.012) on one of my electrics and found them to be "light feeling". I went back to regular strings because I like to feel a bit more resistance when I play.

I saw Collins when he played a concert in Nashville at Vanderbilt University in 1984, he was indeed a nice guy. I never met Kenny Poole but I was aware of him through people I know who did know him and they all said he was a great guy.

[Eddie Lang]

Don't know if this is any help but I remembered this from Jonathan Stout's Swing Guitar Blog

Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five, featuring Hilary Alexander - Swing Guitar Blog - "Chicken a la Swing" ala*Japanese

Jonathan mentions Yuji Kamihigashi was experimenting with this tuning: A,E,D,G,B,E - two bass strings of a seven string, top four strings of a 6 string

Sounds like a good idea too.

I wonder which would be more challenging at first: AEADGB or AEDGBE? And which one could be more useful or practical in the long run?

[monk]

Sounds like a good idea too.

I wonder which would be more challenging at first: AEADGB or AEDGBE? And which one could be more useful or practical in the long run?

My suggestion is to go with AEADGB if you are serious about playing seven string.

Remember that Van Eps, at the time he switched, was playing in a big band which meant mostly playing rhythm. Since rhythm guitar in a big band seldom involved the first string, he had everything else he needed under his hand.

If you want to get a taste of seven string for solo playing, replace your fifth string with a heavier string tuned down an octave. No fingering changes and you'll get a taste for chord melody with a low A.

[Eddie Lang]

I get my thrill playing rhythm, comping and chord melody and I dare say that I am not bad at it. On the other hand, I suck at improvising single note solos on the spot...

I'll probably go with AEADGB. I'll have sacrifice all the cool chord inversions and melody on the top four strings, but there's plenty to do inside anyway. It probably makes more sense learning this way too and it will be easier to make the transition to a seven string guitar when the moment comes.

Thanks for the advice.

[monk]

I get my thrill playing rhythm, comping and chord melody and I dare say that I am not bad at it. On the other hand, I suck at improvising single note solos on the spot...

I'll probably go with AEADGB. I'll have sacrifice all the cool chord inversions and melody on the top four strings, but there's plenty to do inside anyway. It probably makes more sense learning this way too and it will be easier to make the transition to a seven string guitar when the moment comes.

Thanks for the advice.

Richard,
I'm in the procress of preparing a guitar to do this very thing. The temptation to make the leap to seven strings has relentlessly tugged at me for years and I have come perilously close on more than one occasion. Like you, I think that developing some comfort and familiarity with the low A is the thing to do before making the investment on a quality instrument.
Keep me posted,
Jerome

[Eddie Lang]

Yeah, I'll need to cut a new nut to accommodate the new gauge.

I just saw that Thomastik sell a 0.081 as a single string. Pretty expensive though, at $9!

Thomastik-Infeld Nickel Round Wound .081, BB81

On the page for the LaBella seven string set at juststrings.com, a customer wrote a review and mentioned the following:

Also, the string length is far too excessive, as the cloth winding can not be totally cut at the string post or the nylon tape unravels. Therefore on my instrument I have to wind the excess in a loop around the tuner.

With your experience with LaBella strings, do you think the length could be an issue on an ES-225 with the all-in-one bridge/tailpiece? (See pic)

[monk]

Richard,
I think it depends on how you attach the strings to your guitar. The review you posted leads me to believe the person who posted it hasn't given much thought to the best way of changing strings. I didn't have any problems with the LaBellas when I used them. But the way I attach strings to the machine heads has always worked for me with rounds, flats or ribbons. I usually go for three or so turns on the wound strings and five to six on the plain strings, the clip the excess. If you want to discuss this in detail, PM me.
Jerome

[Eddie Lang]

It's fine. You reassured me. I never tried ribbon strings, but I never had any problem restringing rounds or flats.

I use the same method that Frank Ford demonstrates on his website.

[monk]

It's fine. You reassured me. I never tried ribbon strings, but I never had any problem restringing rounds or flats.

I use the same method that Frank Ford demonstrates on his website.

That's the way I do it also. You shouldn't have any trouble with the tape unravelling if you do it this way.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It's disappointing that most of these seven string sets are gauged in the .009 or .010 range bottoming out at around .052. Heck, I use a .052 for a sixth string.

That must be because almost all 7-string guitarists today play on guitars like this: