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Good call on Frank Vignola, I would say he is pretty complete. I wish opportunity would afford him to play some straight ahead Jazz in a more traditional setting with some heavy cats.
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03-25-2013 05:01 AM
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Wow, exciting thread seeing everyone's views on this one.
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That's the one thing I would really like to hear from him as well. He has a vast catalog but there's not much there in terms of more traditional jazz. But then again, maybe that's why he's so much fun to listen to!
Originally Posted by DaveF
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I'd much prefer to hear someone pursuing one original path and making some new music with their own style.
Ben Monder, Kurt, Jesse Van Ruller. These guys just do their thing in their own style.
Even though I don't have any Metheny albums he is an artist who made his own path and made the world come to him on his terms. I admire those type of musicians.
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Super guitarists are neither complete, nor super.
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I'd like to get back on that (Julian) Lage thing.
I agree with him being a great player. I don't agree with those who say he's the best and most complete, while I don't agree with Patrick saying he's terrible either.
He's really good, but he lacks experience and age. He's just 23 or 24 I think, which is normal. And he sounds great on his own gigs, but I've seen him in situations where experience is very noticeable, and you can tell he's lagging behind. His playing isn't bad, it's just that you can tell the other guys have been doing it for longer, and they just have that flavour of age. I'm not saying you have to be a 50 year old cat to get that down. There's plenty of guys in their late 20s or early 30s that have it, Julian just has a bit to go. There's a video of him on Youtube that got posted here of him playing with John Patitucci and Mark O'Connor, and you can tell he's just not on par with them. I also got to see him last year as a special guest with the Jim Hall trio. Same reaction. I do love his playing. I think he's great. He's pours out a lot of emotion into his notes. But it's just not been in the oven for long enough :P.
It's also not fair to put in guitar players over the age of 60-65, for two reasons: They've been at it too long, of course they're going to be really versatile, or they're not really active anymore. You can say what you want about Jim Hall, but he only plays three gigs a year, and it's really just for show and crowd pleasing. He still sounds great, he's a master, but it's not the same. And it still doesn't make him any worst, I just think he should be out of bounds for mentioning in a list of today's guitarists, I like to think of today as contemporary, younger cats.
Pat Metheny, although being in his 60's, is still well active, performing, and composing, as well as pushing the boundaries by trying new things.
Anyways, I want to keep it with guys as old as not past their 40's.
In that case, first that comes to mind is Kurt Rosenwinkel. Really can experiment and always doing new things. Not my complete favorite, but one of them.
Peter Bernstein is definitely my favorite, but I wouldn't call him the most complete, although his playing is really modern, he's not doing anything that's totally new, and is really set into the straight ahead stuff. Nothing wrong with that, he's still my favorite guitarist, but he's not the most complete.
At the same time, Gilad Hekselman is a guy I consider to be really complete, but his playing is often not too great as compared to Kurt and Peter, for example. I actually went to one of Pete's solo gigs at Smalls, which was followed by Ari Hoenigs band, Gilad on guitar. Pete called up Gilad to play two songs as a duo. Gilad can definitely play, but he's a case of trying to do everything and not being great at one thing. He can play really good out, modern stuff, and he can play really good straight ahead stuff, but he's just not incredible at one or the other, but all of it kind of sounds dry and lacking substance, similar to Julian's situation. Again, I do like his playing, but far from being one of my favorites.
Mike Moreno and Lage Lund are also two great guitarists that I feel are pretty complete. Mike Moreno, especially, has his bebop chops down really well, and brings that stuff into his more modern, open playing.
Lastly, I can't believe Kevin Eubanks wasn't mentioned. One of the nastiest guitarists out there. And he's definitely in my list of most complete guitarists. If you define complete in terms of genre playability, he's done the rock/blues stuff, and the jazz stuff. His albums are never the normal straight ahead jazz thing, but they always tend to get some sounds from all over the musical spectrum. He's definitely one of the top guitarists out there right now, for me.
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Slow down there Mr. jtizzle . . . . . I never said Lage was terrible. I never mentioned Lage's name in my first post commenting on that clip. What I said, . . . (in what was intended as a humorous hyperbolic comment) . . . . was, listening to what that ensemble was playing was possibly as painful as root canal surgery . . . TO ME. Unfortunately, that seemed to hit a nerve with some people . . "as root canal surgery always does". . (that was a great line by JakeAcci . . . LOLOLOL)
Julian Lage seems to be a wonderful guitar player. However, in my own opinion some of his attempts at making music are terrible . . . . to my taste. (maybe I'm just ignorant of its content or just don't understand what he's trying to do . . . .
)
In my own opinion, there's a distinct difference between playing the guitar and making music with it. To some, that makes me the bad guy, or an ignorant one, . . but, I can live with that.
Now . . . . I guess we've opened THAT can of worms again.?.?
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Interesting viewpoint! Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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[QUOTE=jtizzle;311231]
Your post was kinda long . . . so I never really got to this comment at the very end of it. But, a huge plus 1 on this, in my opinion. Kevin is a great player and a great musician. Kevin is one of those players I lost track of when I became way too snobbish in my taste. For me, I've kinda shut out everything except bop, Larry Carlton & Lee Ritenour and the ABB . . . pretty much in that order too. I'll listen to other stuff, if I stumble across it . . . but, I just don't look for it. (although I did spin up the vinyl this past weekend and listened to "The Temptations in a Mellow Mood" album)Lastly, I can't believe Kevin Eubanks wasn't mentioned. One of the nastiest guitarists out there. And he's definitely in my list of most complete guitarists. If you define complete in terms of genre playability, he's done the rock/blues stuff, and the jazz stuff. His albums are never the normal straight ahead jazz thing, but they always tend to get some sounds from all over the musical spectrum. He's definitely one of the top guitarists out there right now, for me.
Kevin's got it all man. Heard him do a mini session with Wynton and Branford on PBS a while back. Can't remember who the drummer and bassist were. But, Kevin was great.
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For the record, my initial response to this question is Julian Lage.
Hey jtizzle. I know that video you are talking about with John Patitucci and O'Connor, and I have to disagree, I thought Julian sounded right on-par. I can understand what you mean generally though. I think it partially has to do with his approach, his melodic angle seems less in line with the 'jazz lineage'. In some contexts he sounds 'on top of' the music more then 'melded in'. He does seem to be at a point of kind of consolidation in his growth. It seems like he has truly come into his own these past few years, and I would imagine in another few he will gain another level of completeness or a holistic music unity or something. I don't know, that all sounds very abstract haha.
I haven't heard him playing too much, but there are some videos of him doing solo guitar improv which are really great. He actually evokes what I think Lage does a lot, the 'just music' aesthetic. It doesn't sound like he is playing jazz, fingerstyle, this or that, just improvising a tune. He really is a fantastic under-rated player. I also like his kind of formal-informal approach to fingerstyle playingLastly, I can't believe Kevin Eubanks wasn't mentioned.
Hello Patrick :O! I was just curious if you have checked out any of the material from Julian Lage's Gladwell album or any other videos of him on YouTube. That video was an odd first exposure to him. It is actually very strange that Lage is serving as the poster boy for modern jazz in this argument. Even though he does play in those kinds of modern contexts sometimes, and I know he has a marked interest in free improv, his playing and sound are generally the exact opposite of that. On the Gladwell album (which I wouldn't even call jazz necessarily), the melodies are very lyrical and he plays inside quite a bit. In most contexts I find when he plays out, he really does it with a purpose.Julian Lage seems to be a wonderful guitar player. However, in my own opinion some of his attempts at making music are terrible . . . . to my taste. (maybe I'm just ignorant of its content or just don't understand what he's trying to do . . . .)
One of my favorite things about him is I feel like he has reclaimed some of the so-called 'generic' vocabulary. He isn't afraid to do a simple scale run or sequence, and I think that is really cool. Again, ironically, this is exactly the opposite of the modern thing which has kind of gone the other direction. I've heard him get flak for this. There is a YouTube video of a solo performance and a fellow commented "I'm not paying for scale runs". As I see it, there is a context for everything.
Sometimes the modern stuff wards me off a little as well, because it sounds kind of abstract or floaty. Nothing wrong with that, my ears are just not always receptive to it.
My main point was, Julian is generally a very melodic player. As I said, his playing often evokes that sort of genreless aesthetic.
As for Bireli, he is definitely really good, but I don't always love him. Sometimes I feel like he throws out things for the hell of it (kind of the other end of what Amund says), and the expression on his face often seems a little smug or bored. I obviously don't know that, and it is superficial. I'm interested in what his demeanor is actually like (I realize my opinion is a bit uninformed). At times, he also has a sloppiness which I'm not a fan of. Sloppiness is all context for me though. I remember seeing some videos a while back of him playing with Elvin Jones that I liked quite a bit.
I really enjoy that video from Jazz in Marciac just posted. Some of my favorite Bireli.
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[QUOTE=Tony_C;311321]For the record, my initial response to this question is Julian Lage.
Hi Tony: Look, man . . . I know the guy can play. That was very obvious even in the clip that I expressed my displeasure with. I'm not really into "out" playing regardless of who the artist or what the musical voice. I couldn't listen to 2 minutes of Ornette or Kirk when they went out there either.Hello Patrick :O! I was just curious if you have checked out any of the material from Julian Lage's Gladwell album or any other videos of him on YouTube. That video was an odd first exposure to him. It is actually very strange that Lage is serving as the poster boy for modern jazz in this argument. Even though he does play in those kinds of modern contexts sometimes, and I know he has a marked interest in free improv, his playing and sound are generally the exact opposite of that. On the Gladwell album (which I wouldn't even call jazz necessarily), the melodies are very lyrical and he plays inside quite a bit. In most contexts I find when he plays out, he really does it with a purpose.
Yes, I did go on to youtube right after the shit storm I created with my original post of that clip, to look for some other work by Lage. Found an impromptu performance with Lage and some other guitarist named Armand Hirsh. They did a very "Django-esq" version of Just Friends. Wonderful work by both players. Thought I was listening to Frank Vignola and Howard Alden in the Court Yard at Five Towns College, Long Island NY. It was wonderful.
I'm pretty much a just plain vanilla straight ahead jazz and bop kinda guy. No desire or need to grow beyond that.
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Hey Patrick, didn't mean for you to take it that way. I was exaggerating for purpose of a little humor. I don't think anyone here thinks he's another Wes either.
Also didn't mean to bring up a whole debate on Julian again. He's a great player, but he's missing a lot of stuff. I do recommend his work on Gary Burton's albums though, especially the last one they put out (forgot the name).
That Julian video with Armand is incredible too, he does sound more natural in that setting, and he seems to have studied some cool gypsy stuff. There's also another video with his old teacher, Randy Vincent playing Stella, some of his finest playing as well.
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What 'stuff' is he missing and who determined that he was missing it? Originally Posted by jtizzle
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all the trashy stuff Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
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Just a little salt and pepper Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
As I said before, all I think he's missing is experience in age (because he does have a lot of playing experience already). I just think it's a matter of personal taste. I love his playing, but I just think there's something missing. I mentioned the two situations I've heard him in (with O'Connor+Patitucci, and with Jim Hall) where he just sounds like he's trying to catch up in many places. It doesn't sound bad, all to the contrary, but I just think it's one of the things that keep him from being the most complete guitarist, to me.
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Hey dooder. I wasn't referring to out playing like entire solos or free stuff. I meant like moments of outside playing as bop players and many others often do (especially further in jazz history). Sometimes a player throws out an outside idea and it just sounds like a dissonant idea. I'm saying in more 'inside' contexts when Julian plays an idea that is out he does it with a degree of melodic intent where it sounds to me like the idea is getting by on its own merit more so than the fact that it is an out idea. In the initial video posted I would say that was a context that was pretty much 'all out'. Outside was a big part of the melodic expectation. Like in the aforementioned Just Friends video, if Julian throws out an out idea you don't go 'holy crap, that is out', it is just a neat thing he does. He is subtle about it.Hi Tony: Look, man . . . I know the guy can play. That was very obvious even in the clip that I expressed my displeasure with. I'm not really into "out" playing regardless of who the artist or what the musical voice. I couldn't listen to 2 minutes of Ornette or Kirk when they went out there either.
Also didn't mean to bring up a whole debate on Julian again. He's a great player, but he's missing a lot of stuff. I do recommend his work on Gary Burton's albums though, especially the last one they put out (forgot the name).
Hey mah dude. I wasn't trying to turn it into a debate or anything. Something like the 'age factor' is far too abstract an idea to argue over (I don't like to argue anyway...rewarding discussion of contrasting ideas is preferred haha). I can see what you mean though. That being said, I can see how your analysis fits in some contexts (just not the Patatucci O'Connor tune IMO).
For me, when I think of Julian as a player I don't really think of him as a jazz player per say. I mean, he is, but his original music makes it clear that his voice lies more at a crossroads. My interpretation is that his 'lagging' is because of that kind of friction of his voice with the context he is in, where it doesn't quite fit, and part of what comes with age is learning how to fit your voice into any given situation. He doesn't sound like a swing, bebop, fusion, or modern player. He sounds like Julian Lage to me, so I feel like that will be part of his battle. Just still not sure if I hear it that way, kind of giving my own theory for your interpretation hah. I personally think he has a good deal of 'salt and pepper', but I would be glad to hear him get some more.
P. S. Patrick: As a Long Islander, would have loved to hear that showLast edited by Tony_C; 03-28-2013 at 11:26 AM.
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I'd say the most complete guitarist out there is the guy playing good rhythm somewhere. Do they even exist anymore or is it just a bunch of Wes wannabees now? I vote for Mr. X. X means unknown or something like that.
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Which of the guys mentioned in this thread is a Wes wannabe with no comping skills? Originally Posted by Stevebol
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I said rhythm, not comping. The great rhythm players like Freddie, Charlie and Django played swing rhythm. They weren't 'comping' (accompanying). Wes decided not to follow in their footsteps but he brought a number of new things to the table- octaves that actually sounded good, totally new style, original lines, that thumb, made use of better amps and had very commercial sensabilites. Totally new. Wes could 'comp' as could his contemporaries that were good. He brought back some measure of respectability to electric guitar that was lost with the early death of Charlie Christian. Noone could fill Charlie's shoes and Wes didn't try to. He went another way. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
Everyone wants to be Wes and yes, many can comp but swing rhythm is all but dead as is the music. Too many chiefs, not enough indians as they say. I used to want to be flashy in my younger days and solo a lot. I was young. Now I use the internet to help me to find info on what makes up the building blocks of good music.
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Vignola was already mentioned. Maybe he's your man. Originally Posted by Stevebol
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For all around guitarist, aside all the rhythm vs comping thing I like Van Iterson. He just has a sound I like. To me he's a 'younger cat' so to speak. Kreisberg is amazing but I lean towards a more earthy sound. That's not to say he's void of it. It's about the sound to me, not the notes. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
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[QUOTE=Tony_C;311622]
Hey dooder. I wasn't referring to out playing like entire solos or free stuff.
P. S. Patrick: As a Long Islander, would have loved to hear that show
Man . . . . I can't even begin to tell you how much I miss those shows. The line up of performing talent was unbelieveable. And, that was only during the show. After the show, in the evening at various hotels, they had scores of world renown recording jazz guitar heavy weights. Have you ever attended one?
Ya gotta excuse me for a minute . . . . I gotta get my dictionary and see if there is a definition for . . . . "dooder"???????
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Simply dude->dood->dooder.
Nah, I have never been to one and I have since relocated to Milwaukee.
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I've been in Milwaukee since 2000. I escaped from Buffalo and landed here. Originally Posted by Tony_C
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I'll cast my vote for Tommy Emmanuel to me he's a pretty complete guitarist. I've heard him play every style and do it well, while he may not be "educated" in the traditional sense his ear is among the best on the planet. I could easily watch an hour or two of his playing and never be bored. I can't say that about a lot of the very best. JMHO
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