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I think the definition of complete needs to be defined. For me, "complete" doesn't have to mean versatility. As I always say, versatility is overrated.
I think you can think of a cat like Hall as "complete," maybe more complete than a "jack of all trades" could ever be. He has a tremendous vocabulary, he's a great accompanyist, capable of minimalistic statements, beautiful melody, solo playing, enough chops to tackle a Parker tune, he can play free, etc...
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03-14-2013 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yes, he's complete within the confines of what he does.
The term 'complete' needs defining. I was taking it at face value, ie over many genres. If we redefine it as 'complete jazz guitarist' then the field narrows considerably. And Hall moves way up on my list. Don't get me wrong, I love his playing dearly.
Your tune a week series shows us all what a complete player you are. And I love to log in every week and see how you are interpreting the songs, some of which I don't know. But you know what - I then go to Spotify or You Tube and check out the original, and that then takes me on a listening journey. It's got nothing to do with me playing, just me getting to understand how different people can come up with different ways of playing the same tune. A journey my wife is also accompanying me on, and it's great fun for us both! She wouldn't know a speckled ninth from a demented fifth, and neither do I 95% of the time. But she likes your music, and probably wants to adopt your singer.
Cheers
PhilLast edited by Philly112; 03-14-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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I think it's better to just define it yourself. It's our OWN list. Whatever complete means to you. To me it means someone who can do it all - chord melody, straight ahead and burn, can read fly shit, can play funk as well as on rock formats but has his own sound and style. That's complete to me.
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I take it to mean a player who plays until he has reached completion. In that case, I think it's Steve Vai.
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Back OT...
I agree it's how you define "complete". If you mean able to play exquisitely in all genres, it's a pretty narrow field. I would actually think Roy Clark might fit that description better than a lot of jazz guitarists. Chet Atkins, no longer with us, certainly would fit. Jazz guitarist Herb Ellis played and recorded in many different genres.
Pat Metheny has collaborated with a lot of diverse musicians, even accompanying Joni Mitchell and David Bowie, but I am not aware of him playing country or really straying far outside the jazz context.
I guess my definition of complete would be someone able to play well in all jazz idioms and venture into other areas such as blues, country, pop, R&B, etc. I will still propose Benson as the best all-around guitarist in jazz today. I really think he could play anything, accompany anyone, and play in any setting. He has collaborated with hundreds of other artists as diverse as Frank Sinatra, Stevie Wonder and Chet Atkins.
In support of my thesis I present his discography, which must be one of the longest of any still living guitarist:
George Benson discography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Interesting points. Yes, a player can be complete in one style, but lack in others. This is an important distinction. To my ears, a player who masters styles besides bebop often brings something new and interesting to the table. You have Joe Pass who was pure bebop. To me, his single lines were trumpet lines. He played with the syncopation and articulation you hear in the greatest trumpet players like Fats Navarro, Miles, Dizzie and others. He was a complete player in the bebop style because his single lines were rock solid, his comping was intelligent and sensitive and he was self completely sufficient considering he was one of the greatest solo guitar players ever(some consider him the best ever).
Then you have players who master many styles. John McLaughlin comes to mind. A phenomenal player, mostly known for his fusion playing but he is also a great bebop/modern jazz player and plays Indian music as well. I don't know all about Johns playing, but I don't hear him play much solo guitar so I assume it's not his strength(comparing him to the big names of solo jazz guitar). That is a natural consequence. There are only so many hours in a day and you got to eat, spend time on the porcelain, and sleep too.
Considering all that brings me to why I picked Bireli as the player I consider as the most complete. He masters so many styles, and functions in them in all aspects. He plays modern jazz and is not only a phenomenal soloist, but he comps masterfully and does improvised solo guitar performances too(extremely creative and advanced stuff to my ears). He masters soloing and comping in the Django style. I've seen clips where he improvises Bach-like pieces on the Selmer/Macaferri type guitar. Is it authentic Baroque? Maybe not, I wouldn't know. But it certainly adds to his versatility, that's for sure.
He played fusion with Jaco, and has recorded several fusion albums. He did a big band record. He recorded the album "Blue Eyes" were he sings in the Sinatra style. Is his singing on par with Frankie? I don't think so. But he gets by and it sounds great.
And now recently he does this really interesting thing in an organ setting playing a stratocaster mixing jazz vocab with SRV influenced blues vocab and even some neoclassical type compositions.
There is also the infamous video from way back when he played metal shred guitar way better than most players who dedicate their lives to that music.
So I pick Bireli taking all those factors into consideration. I think he can hang with anyone, and if the style is foreign to him he'll surely learn it quickly. Can he read music? Probably not, but he gets by without it.
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Yeah, Bireli is fantastic. He has al those categories covered, except that he doesn't read and he doesn't really know his chords. I mean he knows them, he just doesn't know what they're called. He said he's gone back to learn some of them. But he's such a natural player that when doing his OWN thing or simple things, standards and what not, it's not a factor. But if some modern guy wants to hire him for some advanced jazz that has al these poly chords and intricate reading, he's knot your man, unless you just want him to do what he does and cue him.
Otherwise Bireli has all the chops and versatility you can ever want. He's king of the hill.
McLaughlin? He's great but he's not a good bop player. He can play the changes but doesn't have the feel or concept. I love him though! Don't get me wrong.
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I just spent the last twenty minutes listening to Bireli playing with Philip Catherine...now , admittedly, Catherine is easily one of my favorites of all time, but i dunno...I'm just not hearing this Bireli thing...cramming a bunch of notes in small spaces... Catherine is the model of melody and taste, and he's got chops too...Lagrene really leaves me cold.
When it comes to gypsy jazz stuff there's few who can blow like Bireli...but in a more modern setting...i do not see him as the master some do.
And again, I dont think that's bad. Nobody rags on Eddie Van Halen cuz he can't play bluegrass. I don't see how versatility plays into a players worth...in any art form...I also never lament Rothko didn't get into sculpture.
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[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;306698]I just spent the last twenty minutes listening to Bireli playing with Philip Catherine...now , admittedly, Catherine is easily one of my favorites of all time,
but i dunno...I'm just not hearing this Bireli thing...cramming a bunch of notes in small spaces...
Hmmmm . . . . . sounds like something I'd be "ignorant" enough to say. I certainly hope no one say's that you're "not hearing this Bireli thing" because you just don't understand what he's playing . . . . . . . ;-)
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same duo, albeit some years ago...Bireli in his wheelhouse...about as good as it gets.
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Yeah, definitely a bad choice of words on my part...I did hope that my first post in this thread showed that I do think highly of Lagrene...I just don't feel he's a master of all styles. So I guess what I should have typed was "I'm not feeling this idea of Birelli as a master of all styles he plays," because I really do not think he is. I don't think many guitarists are, if any.
It's more than just this one clip too--there's a bunch of videos out there with him and Catherine (I was on a Catherine listening kick last night and found these vids)...I'm just not hearing his technique transfer well to that Gibson...
I think the difference is--and we'll see if I get pushback on my Bireli comments--is the language we used...when you compare something to a root canal, you're going to touch some nerves. When you say something "isn't jazz" or is "non-musical" you're going to touch nerves...I said he crams a lot of notes into small spaces, then posted a video where you can clearly hear him do that--the technique is sloppy, and the time suffers (jeez, who am I now, RichB?) but I never accused his music of being "what passes for jazz these days." Those phrases are gonna set folks off--you know that.
In the end, as Reg says, it's music, we're not saving lives...which is important to keep in perspective...it's just like, as you said, it's the internet, not a bar where we can give each other hell and the tone of our voices can really show we're not deathly serious about our comments...here, literally, it's all black or white...
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Didja like that? If so, then, yeah, totally intended.
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Jazz is just one of those terms we get to define for ourselves and not for others, like the terms food, fun, or ugly.
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Lots of folks don't like him simply because he is too good. He has the balls to play what he hears at any given moment without being diplomatic about it. I think a lot of people envy that kind of freedom and the technique required to make that happen.
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03-15-2013, 03:26 PM #91Dutchbopper GuestYeah I agree. It almost seems politically correct to state that this type of (pyrotechnical) playing is not your thing and then usually the statement follows how much Jim Hall is preferred. I am not addressing anyone here but I have seen this posted countless times in jazz guitar newgroups and fora. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
Of course the fact remains that Bireli's single line chops are totally untouchable. So why does he play like this? Because he can.
Personally I totally dig his in-your-face style.
Dick
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Eh, I don't knock it. It's what people pay to see I guess. That's why we're talking about Bireli rather than Jakob Bro.
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I know the folks you're talking about, but that's not what I'm saying. I like pyrotechnic playing now and then, and I like Jim Hall. Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
Watch the clip of Autumn Leaves I posted. He's flubbing notes left and right. He's not comfortable. It's okay, he's human. He's allowed to not be perfect at everything. Like I said, there's plenty of clips out there of him burning. And I like his playing...I'm not dissing the guy, just saying that, like any other player--he's got shortcomings. This duo with Catherine, playing electric guitar, seems to be one of them--because there's lots of video evidence of it.
I'll gladly post my shortcomings too, if anyone's offended. Hope you have some time to read.
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metheny would be my choice
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As far as I am concerned, I get your point and I mostly agree with you, there are quite a few videos of him on youtube with subpar performances (I mean subpar with respect to what he can do). I mean, you can fin such videos for any player anyway, as long as there is a part of improvisation. However, he doesn't seem uncomfortable to me at all, maybe just in a bad shape, bailing on his technique and hallmark tricks, and this few videos certainly don't mean he is not in his element with an electric. Here is one where he explains he considers himself more of an electric jazz player (around 1:05:00). Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
If he says it...
Then of course, you are free not to like him in that setting, but that's a different issue.Last edited by Mr JDG13; 03-15-2013 at 06:06 PM. Reason: bad english...
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Martin Taylor.The term "complete guitarist" could have been coined to describe him.No disrespect to all the other wonderful players mentioned.
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+1 for Taylor. His current style encompasses melody, harmony and basslines with great invention and facility. And don't forget all his previous experience with gypsy jazz, etc.
Off to see him with Tommy E tonight, weather permitting!
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for me now my favourite is BEN MONDER can't find any Youtubes i recomend SPOTIFY app to check him out
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Awesome, Kevin Harland on drums.
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I'm going to toss a couple of different names into the mix.
Guthrie Govan. The guy can play anything which such impressive mastery and feel.
Frank Vignola. Another person that just seems like he can play anything at all.
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