Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[destinytot]

another one!

they just keep coming -

try this

instead of thinking of everything as revolving around the down stroke on the strong beats think of everything as revolving around the up stroke on the weak beats.

you can do this because you have your fundamentals - your down stroke is a rest stroke and you're holding the pick right (i.e. in the benson manner for present purposes) - this means that your down stroke sort of happens by itself because of gravity and how relaxed your hand is.

the bit you really have to put yourself into is not the downstroke rest stroke - its the up stroke free stroke. the sense in which you have to 'put yourself into it' is simple - you can let your hand fall through the string on the down stroke but you have to flick it back up with the upstroke.

so feel the picking as a series of upward flicks with the index finger. just think of the index finger and feel yourself flicking it back and up.

as soon as i do this everything gets more solid and better articulated.

very nice

Great description -makes mucho sense.

[Robertkoa]

I am not a Benson Picker -though I love his
Playing and great Blues Feel over any changes and his super funky sense of Time....etc etc etc.

Regarding arm movement- in most Players- the arm merely follows the wrist (and sometimes thumb-finger movement).

Meaning the Arm is not a generator or motor/engine of the picking -it merely follows wrist /hand
Depending on your body and motion and how you hold the Guitar etc etc - the Arm will have a different "control arc " across the strings-but again it is merely following the hand- and it may be misleading to watch the Arm Motion of other players and think it is a major generator of precise picking intensity.

Unless you are playing Mandolin Style Tremelo or "Misrilou" Dick Dale stuff...
And especially working on a New Technique - just let the arm follow comfortably .
When you try to use Arm as a major part of the Engine- it gets really complicated and throws off the individual feel of each note which even at speed should be there [upstroke-downstroke -or skip] syncing with what you are hearing.
So IMO -trying to USE Arm Motion as a generator/engine throws off the natural precision needed and Players who look like they are using Arm Motion as major part of Picking Engine are NOT.

[destinytot]

Way to go, Dan Wilson! To hear the sound of joy on jazz guitar, check out (at least) the fours from 3m41:

[MarkRhodes]

Way to go, Dan Wilson! To hear the sound of joy on jazz guitar, check out (at least) the fours from 3m41:

Wish that guy's head wasn't in the way! ;o)

[destinytot]

I am not a Benson Picker -though I love his
Playing and great Blues Feel over any changes and his super funky sense of Time....etc etc etc.

Regarding arm movement- in most Players- the arm merely follows the wrist (and sometimes thumb-finger movement).

Meaning the Arm is not a generator or motor/engine of the picking -it merely follows wrist /hand
Depending on your body and motion and how you hold the Guitar etc etc - the Arm will have a different "control arc " across the strings-but again it is merely following the hand- and it may be misleading to watch the Arm Motion of other players and think it is a major generator of precise picking intensity.

Unless you are playing Mandolin Style Tremelo or "Misrilou" Dick Dale stuff...
And especially working on a New Technique - just let the arm follow comfortably .
When you try to use Arm as a major part of the Engine- it gets really complicated and throws off the individual feel of each note which even at speed should be there [upstroke-downstroke -or skip] syncing with what you are hearing.
So IMO -trying to USE Arm Motion as a generator/engine throws off the natural precision needed and Players who look like they are using Arm Motion as major part of Picking Engine are NOT.

For me, Groyniad's point about the index finger (excuse pun) is a golden nugget, as Julian Lage's point about tracing the pinky's movement to the shoulder blade is a pearl - and they show up in performance/playing as 'one movement' and no-movement (not a 'doing', but a 'being'/experience).

I experienced it on Friday* (in a trio), and the key was to be 'present', to mirror the others' relaxation, to trust - and to ride the flow. Several people recorded parts on their mobiles (?!), so I expect to be able to share some video as soon as it surfaces... but, actually, my point is this: without the discussion in this thread, I doubt whether I'd be even remotely as close as I am now to making the quick, accurate, and highly-coordinated movements with an effortless groove that characterise this picking technique.

PS Nunocpinto put it best - 'playing with confidence and authority'

[nunocpinto]

Fasten your seatbelts!

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=nunocpinto;578506]Fasten your seatbelts! /QUOTE]

Whoa! That's something else.

[Groyniad]

god i love this thread

that FIRST four from dan is just the dog's bollocks - what an incredibly fluid feel he's got

and that's got SO much to do with his right hand

wonderful

[MarkRhodes]

I've given up on the pointy end of the pick. I can never keep it in a good position while playing. This is likely the result of something else that I am doing which is wrong. Nonetheless, the solution I've hit on is playing with the shoulder of the pick, not the point. It is not ideal but it is much more consistent than the "normal" grip. End of pick update... ;o)

(I love this thread too. We're now close to 75,000 views. Perhaps on our tombstones our tallies of posts to this thread will be mentioned alongside the dates of our birth and our death....)

[Groyniad]

i'll post a video soon about the point of the pick

i've had a real breakthrough with that recently

[MarkRhodes]

i'll post a video soon about the point of the pick

i've had a real breakthrough with that recently

I look forward to that. I can never keep it still. (This was true with the conventional grip too. For most of my adult life, I have played with a Jazz III running along the top side of my index finger (-pick and finger pointing the same direction), and that kept it in place better than anything else, but it didn't allow me all I sought in terms of picking. And so, like hte ancient mariner, I slogged on....

When I use a shoulder of the pick, the pick tends to stay 'right there.' I'm enjoying the results.

[Groyniad]

i think this is really important stuff for would-be benson right-handers...

(dig the close ups of his right hand on the 66 at newport mega-clip....)

i was saying that i got a whole lot out of slightly emphasizing the weak beat (typically) played with an upstroke (or back flick).

further to that:

one of the huge things about this technique is that it allows you to get from one string to another super-fast and that makes all phrasing more fluid and it makes it very easy to have fun with the time of a tune etc. etc.

part of this is that you are pushing down very slightly on the pick (which is resting against a string) all the time. so the pick moves onto the next string almost instantly and automatically, as it were - i.e. you don't perform a discreet action in order to make it happen. it happens by itself because of something else you are doing, namely, sort of pressing the pick into the strings a bit...

(this constant downward pressure is obvious playing ascending lines - but the downward pressure is near constant even on descending lines because - remember - until you start playing very fast, EVERY string change is a down stroke rest stroke (see newport 66 footage).

this constancy of downward pressure is why the pivotal down stroke (sort of) takes care of itself. the bit that requires you to perform discreet actions is the upstroke (or back flick).

the thing about this is that it makes the line pop forward much better because the weaker beats are played quite strong.

you can vary how much you emphasize them at will.

when you think about it if you're playing 8ths or 16ths (as i usually am in practice - though not necessarily in performance) THE thing to vary (to push the line forwards and make it feel good) is the relative weighting of stronger and weaker beats. when you swing 8ths this effect is emphasized further - and it feels great.

[destinytot]

Thanks, nunocpinto! For me (more than GB), Dan Wilson is the one to watch - he's got so much more ahead. (Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.)

[MarkRhodes]

The way I'm holding it now and plan to keep holding it.

Attachment 24676Attachment 24677

For some reason, when I hold the pick the normal way, I can't keep the pick / grip steady. But when I point the tip upward and grip it so that I'm playing with a shoulder of the pick, it feels natural and stays in place. This way, I'm a happy player.

[setemupjoe]

I've done this occasionally with the pick but I find I don't get enough of an attack with the rounded shoulder. Still, if it works for you, awesome.

[MarkRhodes]

I've done this occasionally with the pick but I find I don't get enough of an attack with the rounded shoulder. Still, if it works for you, awesome.

The attack is different. But for me, that's not a dealbreaker because the other way was too inconsistent for me, THAT was the dealbreaker. Yes, I wish I could play blazing fast but more than that, I want to get things down faster and feel more confident that what I intend to play is what I will actually play and it will come out right. This way gives me that. Frankly I can't fathom why, as it's the same pick and the grip is pretty much the same, but for some reason, rotating it puts the pick in a position where it will stay. Yay! I'm happy.

[destinytot]

Downstroke alert 03:27 - 03:31 (clip courtesy of the Jump Blue thread):

Redolent of 13:55 - 18:45:

[destinytot]

Although this comment (from a thread about Joscho https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post582859) is about strumming​, I'm beginning to think the part quoted in bold below may apply to single-note downstrokes - with pick or thumb.

Standard practice technique is to play each strike crisply, usually with muted strings and metronome, but take plenty of time to relax between each strike.

PS A teacher is needed, but I relate this to 'inhibition' and 'direction' in Alexander Technique.

I suspect it may be enough to let the hand feel 'empty' (as if it were a glove) for a fleeting moment before each downstroke.

[Groyniad]

at the moment i am trying hard to keep the pick in contact with some string or other as close to all the time as is possible

(the hardest bit is downstrokes on the top e string - or upstrokes on the bottom e)

this seems to be a very good idea in terms of the general feel of the whole technique - it really pushes home the total contrast with traditional picking where the basic position is holding the pick in the air just above the strings etc. etc. the sound is great

i love employing this technique with strumming patterns - the sound is fantastic - darker and warmer - and it promises to improve timefeel too

this approach works best for double time or very fast passages that are driven by the arm more than by the wrist or fingers - and it goes with using economy style picking because to keep the down-stroke-on-every-string-change rule you have to lift the pick up off the strings and put it back down again - and that is a different feel altogether (which i use for everything except very fast passages).

i've also been trying to position the pick not squarely on the pad of the index finger but up slightly on to the top edge of the finger. i emphasize slightly here. the smallest change makes a huge difference in feel. but repositioning the pick like this helps make the upstroke work even better - and this goes with the other things i've been working on that i've mentioned in recent posts.

keep the benson-picking faith benson-pickers!

[Groyniad]

if benson on that newport 66 clip is not the coolest thing ever i don't know what cool is (and i seriously do know what cool is)

this clip is the best evidence that everything nunocpinto told us about the downstrokiness of the technique is TRUE TRUE TRUE

-----

if he looked like me he would still be the coolest thing ever on this clip (because of his guitar playing)

but he does not look like me

he looks like him

and i don't

[destinytot]

this clip is the best evidence that everything nunocpinto told us about the downstrokiness of the technique is TRUE TRUE TRUE

QED @03:27 - 03:31, I think.

this approach works best for double time or very fast passages that are driven by the arm more than by the wrist or fingers

And I think rapid rotation is what creates torque - but it's unreasonable to expect to observe this with the naked eye

more like a wet dog shaking.

(again, from that post about Joscho).

Still keen and hopeful of that video about the point of the pick, Jon!

[Groyniad]

mike - sorry its taking me so long - i can't make one that is not rather dominated by my younger boy. and he always steals the show. not sure whether its because the theme is less than thrilling, or because he has that indefinable star-quality.

i like the wet dog analogy - i don't think i've got enough of that movement going on at all

thanks for the interest!

[Robertkoa]

Love Perry's playing in that Clip.

The reason the women are leaving is this is not a danceable groove by present day standards.

Swing was Dance Music.
Minuets, Toccatas and Waltz and Rhumba were all Dance Music of their Time .

You want a bigger Audience-
get a better Groove.

My understanding is Bebop was invented by Musicians FOR other Musicians...so forget about the Women ...lol.

But Perry sounds great here..
I am personally not using Benson Picking but it has inspired me to get better Articulation and I love the Benson Style.

You know what's weird -when you watch someone who is really good at Benson Picking - it is so efficient it looks like they are only picking every other Note...lol.

Watch Perry here -the Notes are flying by ...and his picking hand looks like it's half time ...and that little Ibanez sounds really good ..
And he has his own Tone- not exactly like GB ..very very cool.

[Robertkoa]

QED @03:27 - 03:31, I think.



And I think rapid rotation is what creates torque - but it's unreasonable to expect to observe this with the naked eye
(again, from that post about Joscho).

Still keen and hopeful of that video about the point of the pick, Jon!

To play fast passages and still control the Rhythm and Accents AND to mix fast and slow passages it is MUCH better to use the same pick and wrist motion for Both types.
With too much Arm ( which is usually an illusion ) the Player tends to lose the accents and feeling of up and down alternate picking and ability to cross strings...skip strings etc.IMO.
Do a Tremolo picking one note as fast as you can...
Does adding Arm Motion REALLY speed it up ?
Does it throw off the Rhythm even if it helps your speed.( which is doubtful )?
You should be playing in double time or quadruple time...very hard to play using the Arm..IMO.

[Dennis D]

Downstroke alert 03:27 - 03:31 (clip courtesy of the Jump Blue thread):

Redolent of 13:55 - 18:45:

" Benson's Rider"....

Wow....and wow again......

Here's what happens when you hire good players and let them play....

There's nothing wrong if the music makes you want to stomp your feet.....

Thank you a million for including this!

Sorry, I'm pretty sure my comments are off topic. I'm just grateful YT has these vids to watch, and also grateful that these vids get mentioned and can get the attention of younger players.


Sincerely, thanks again.