Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Stu Foley]

That would be interesting Evan. I suppose that with true Benson picking, even though he uses the trailing edge of the pick, one experiences the same advantages and limitations of Gypsy picking when it comes to plotting one's way on the fingerboard.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, 50 pages...nah keep going, as long as it stays on topic, or close to it.

I wasn't thinking of ending it. I was surprised at how long the thread seemed to remain at 50 pages.

If you scroll back, you'll see that someone else wondered about this--it seems--a month ago. I didn't think much of it then but recently I noticed we were still on page 50 and I thought, hhhmmm, maybe that's the limit. But it is not. We are now on page 51. Yay.

[MarkRhodes]

I got a great lesson from JC Stylles a while ago where I suddenly realized how Benson was setting up the fingerings, and it makes so much freakin' sense. It's beautifully executed.

I'd like to hear more about that too. The longer I play, the more I realize the importance of fingering. Just this week I've taken two lines by Frank Vignola and re-fingered the way Herb Ellis (probably) would play them and that made them easier for me because Herb's shapes are more my default than Frank's. Is JC's / George's method of setting up fingerings like Wes's way?

[MarkRhodes]

While we're on the subject of fingerings... Evan, you were part of that thread on Benson's approach to playing changes. (See link to that thread below.)

Do you think Benson's way of fingering made certain ways of handling changes easier than others? I suppose every approach makes some things easier than others. Does Benson's way of fingering change your mental organization of the fretboard? And if so, how?

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...g-changes.html

[ecj]

While we're on the subject of fingerings... Evan, you were part of that thread on Benson's approach to playing changes. (See link to that thread below.)

Do you think Benson's way of fingering made certain ways of handling changes easier than others? I suppose every approach makes some things easier than others. Does Benson's way of fingering change your mental organization of the fretboard? And if so, how?

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...g-changes.html

Sort of replying to both of your posts. I'm still just getting my feet wet with the left hand approach.

The basic principles JC showed me were to allow yourself a 5-fret span, and use the bebop scales heavily. When you do that, and you think about using rest stroke picking, it suddenly becomes apparent why Benson slides and slurs when and where he does. It's worth paying for a lesson for someone to show you.

I started playing things that suddenly sounded more like Benson to me. It's really an elegant solution to a lot of problems. The key thing is that no matter where you are when you're playing, you're never in an awkward position. I'm not sure how to articulate it better than that. You're always in control, which may be why Benson sounds always in control.

I'm not sure if I'd describe gypsy picking or rest-stroke picking as having "limitations". To my ears Wes sounds far less limited than most of the alt-pick based jazz guitarists, even though from a technical standpoint it should be the case that they have greater ability to do things. I think the rest strokes make playing the guitar so much easier from a physical standpoint that those benefits dramatically outweigh concerns about anything else.

[nunocpinto]

[ecj]

Unreal.

[Nabil B]

Sort of replying to both of your posts. I'm still just getting my feet wet with the left hand approach.

The basic principles JC showed me were to allow yourself a 5-fret span, and use the bebop scales heavily. When you do that, and you think about using rest stroke picking, it suddenly becomes apparent why Benson slides and slurs when and where he does. It's worth paying for a lesson for someone to show you.

I started playing things that suddenly sounded more like Benson to me. It's really an elegant solution to a lot of problems. The key thing is that no matter where you are when you're playing, you're never in an awkward position. I'm not sure how to articulate it better than that. You're always in control, which may be why Benson sounds always in control.

Can you please elaborate on these points ? I'm really interested by the subject but I didn't understand how these different elements are linked, how they affect each other.

[ecj]

Can you please elaborate on these points ? I'm really interested by the subject but I didn't understand how these different elements are linked, how they affect each other.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am sharing all the info for free on a message board since I paid a teacher for it. It's hard enough as a jazz guitarist, and while I love the democratization of knowledge on the old internets, I think I should probably respect the instructor by not sharing more than I already did.

Hit up JC Stylles for his left hand lesson. It was very affordable and answered a ton of questions in the hour that it took.

[Groyniad]

since i've been doing the benson thing i've found myself working a hell of a lot with what people often call 'be-bop scales' and trying to eradicate any parts of the neck where i'm not totally confident of where everything is.

i recommend the maj and min sixth dim. scales barry harris uses (and does not call be-bop scales). but there are four 'added-note' scales that are crucial it seems to me

maj 6th - maj scale with added tone between 5 and 6
min 6th - maj scale with flatted 3 and added tone between 5 and 6
min 7th - maj scale with flatted 3 and flatted 7 with added tone between flatted 7 and tonic
dominant - (dom scale obviously) - added tone between flatted 7 and 1 (this is the one some call a 'be-bop scale')

try this

maj and min 6 scales:
3 octave scales from 1,3,5,6 to 1,3,5,6 respectively - there's lots of ways to finger them - but the added note provides a kind of natural slip-point in all of them

you can also make up loads of pattern type exercises with these which might help with soloing - but certainly help practicing the right hand technique. the crucial thing is that its easy to make all the patterns fit perfectly on the bar - so its easy to sing them and make them feel right.

[Groyniad]

it is very very easy to fail to put the focused energy you need into picking because you are also concerned about exactly what you're playing.

the rhythmical scale-based exercises - once you have set up all the fingerings etc. (this can take AGES) - give you a way to play rhythmically without thinking about what you're playing so you can put almost ALL your energy into transforming your picking technique

i can't stand musically meaningless picking exercises that i can't sing happily - but the added-note scales, especially when broken up into fragments etc. - are not musically meaningless.

but to nail the incredible right hand technique you really need to drag your attention away from what you're playing and focus it entirely on how you're right hand is working.

[Nabil B]

I'm not sure how comfortable I am sharing all the info for free on a message board since I paid a teacher for it. It's hard enough as a jazz guitarist, and while I love the democratization of knowledge on the old internets, I think I should probably respect the instructor by not sharing more than I already did.

Hit up JC Stylles for his left hand lesson. It was very affordable and answered a ton of questions in the hour that it took.

I understand your position, and I will contact him like you advised, thanks.

[MarkRhodes]

I'm not sure how comfortable I am sharing all the info for free on a message board since I paid a teacher for it. It's hard enough as a jazz guitarist, and while I love the democratization of knowledge on the old internets, I think I should probably respect the instructor by not sharing more than I already did.

Hit up JC Stylles for his left hand lesson. It was very affordable and answered a ton of questions in the hour that it took.

I appreciate that. I wouldn't mind doing that if it's a specific lesson. (I've had two coaching months with him and bought his tutorial, so I'm not adverse to paying the guy! ;o)

[destinytot]

it is very very easy to fail to put the focused energy you need into picking because you are also concerned about exactly what you're playing.

the rhythmical scale-based exercises - once you have set up all the fingerings etc. (this can take AGES) - give you a way to play rhythmically without thinking about what you're playing so you can put almost ALL your energy into transforming your picking technique

i can't stand musically meaningless picking exercises that i can't sing happily - but the added-note scales, especially when broken up into fragments etc. - are not musically meaningless.

but to nail the incredible right hand technique you really need to drag your attention away from what you're playing and focus it entirely on how you're right hand is working.

With you 100% on that. I'm more of a Tortoise than a Hare, but I now feel ready to practise - to play - what Barry Harris teaches in his workshop videos, which was completely beyond me this time last year. (Ah... those fragrant roses!)

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I'm not sure how comfortable I am sharing all the info for free on a message board since I paid a teacher for it. It's hard enough as a jazz guitarist, and while I love the democratization of knowledge on the old internets, I think I should probably respect the instructor by not sharing more than I already did.

Hit up JC Stylles for his left hand lesson. It was very affordable and answered a ton of questions in the hour that it took.

if you don't want to share your information, that's fine. sending people to another site to pay for that info is not cool and defeats the purpose of this thread and this forum in general imo.

[ecj]

if you don't want to share your information, that's fine. sending people to another site to pay for that info is not cool and defeats the purpose of this thread and this forum in general imo.

How is what I said any different from suggestions that people find a good teacher or recommending a book?

Not everyone knows what resources are out there. I wouldn't grab my Baker book, scan all the pages, and post them up on the forum, and similarly I don't feel like I should just throw all the tips I've ever gotten from teachers up online for free. I think it's more polite and respectful to tell people what you benefited from and where they can get it.

[Reg]

Fingerings are much more important that pick technique...

Fingering are an approach that creates... articulations, Harmonic reference, style, feels, rhythmic patterns.

Even when you don't have chops... at least can't burn, if your playing in the right positions and with the right fingering you can still create melodic grooves, which imply the right harmonies. Generally even when you don't quite understand the whole harmonic thing...

It take very high levels of pick technique and left hand in general to play what's implied out of position

[m_d]

I'm not sure what else there is to say about the picking side. I think we need a left-hand thread, because I'm very interested in that these days.

I got a great lesson from JC Stylles a while ago where I suddenly realized how Benson was setting up the fingerings, and it makes so much freakin' sense. It's beautifully executed.

Having followed Troy Grady's definitive analyses of the styles of Ygnwie Malmsteen and Eric Johnson (although neither interest me sufficiently to learn them) I'm fairly certain too that the way Benson combines right and left hands is 100% logical. Grady shows how Malmsteen's fingerings are completely derived from the way he picks and vice versa. I don't suppose Grady would ever do the same kind of work on Benson, for one thing it would be much harder to do and Grady is a rock player. But I'm guessing that supreme coherence in their technique, including between the right and the left hand, is a common trait to all those famous players regardless of genre.

[ecj]

I don't appear to be able to "like" things from my phone, so I'll just say that I couldn't agree more.

We should petition Grady to hook his device up to benson's guitar. I'd love to see the results.

I think he did a vid with jimmy Bruno at one point, so he might not do the analysis but he does have some jazzers in the repertoire.

[MarkRhodes]

I don't appear to be able to "like" things from my phone, so I'll just say that I couldn't agree more.

We should petition Grady to hook his device up to benson's guitar. I'd love to see the results.

I think he did a vid with jimmy Bruno at one point, so he might not do the analysis but he does have some jazzers in the repertoire.

I'd love to see the video of Jimmy Bruno. I have his "Art of Picking" DVD but I haven't looked at it yet. It's in reserve. I don't think Jimmy talks much about how to hold a pick, just about a) movement from the arm, b) nothing touching the guitar anywhere, except maybe on the strings sometimes, and c) downstroke when going to a higher string and an upstroke when going to a lower one, period. One thing I like about Jimmy's playing is that he can use a lot of arps without making it sound real mechanical. (Most such playing tends to---in my admittedly limited experience.) He really does have great technique.

[m_d]

Good idea who knows ... Benson might just say yes.
I believe the Bruno interview was scheduled for the third season, as well as something with a French gypsy jazz player who lives in Brooklyn.

[MarkRhodes]

Fingerings are much more important that pick technique...

Fingering are an approach that creates... articulations, Harmonic reference, style, feels, rhythmic patterns.

I agree with this. I was thinking about it the other day when learning some lines by Frank Vignola and realizing I wasn't fingering them the way he does in the tab for his book but the way Herb Ellis (probably) would. Frank's a great player and he seems obsessed with fingering. (He once told me he tried to finger things as many different ways as he could.) Nothing wrong with that. But I'm not great and I think I've made trouble for myself by looking at tab and never thinking that I was mixing up the way I tend to finger things. At this point, I realize I'm pretty much a Herb guy. This doesn't mean I can't do anything else or learn from anyone else, but it does mean---as you put it, Reg---I have to know what my default is, the way I can finger without thinking about it. Herb's way is kind of diagonal (3 basic shapes for major chords, spanning 12 frets) and that would be compatible with many things Wes and George do. (I love Kenny Burrell too but I don't know anything about his approach to fingering.)

Jimmy Bruno is intense about fingerings too. He has his way and he's consistent about it: five fingerings and he can get everything he wants out of them. I used to do seven fingerings and also 3 notes-per-string scales but I don't do those anymore, though I suppose I could in a pinch if needed.

But you know, Reg, if you take a one-finger-per-fret approach, with the index and pinky sliding another fret if needed---which is the most basic approach to fingering, right?---what exactly does that entail? (I'm not saying you're wrong; rather, I'm wondering what you think THAT approach to fingering entails.)

[destinytot]

Fascinated by the thrust of the conversation - and delighted that I'll soon be able to devote time and energy to focused study.

[2bornot2bop]

The question I have is to the OP:

Philco, 2.5 years ago did it ever occur to you during the authorship of this thread that it would become 51 pages long with no end of continued contributions in sight? Isn't that like some form of immortality or something?

[2bornot2bop]

Wow. Brother McDuff alongside the player discovery he made who was playing across the street from his Pittsburg gig!