Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[destinytot]

Yay! Just received detailed personalised feedback from JC Stylles.

JC gave me some great solutions that I've been able to apply immediately. Very down-to-earth stuff really, but stuff I couldn't see for myself, e.g arm position (which I sorted by shortening the strap and holding the guitar more to the side of my body - allowing my hand to relax further).

I'll be practising basics daily to make them habitual. Then I'll put them next to Barry Harris 8-note scales over new repertoire - and get to work!

[MarkRhodes]

The important thing to remember is these aren't absolutes. Joe Pass said he did that...but I'm sure there's exceptions.

Technique should not dictate the lines you play. Technique is means to an end.

I've heard that before: "Technique should not dictate the lines you play." I'm inclined to agree with that. (That is, my initial reaction to that claim would be that it seemed right to me.)

Now, I'm in a different spot.

Not that I think this is wrong.

But I do think this: well, didn't Parker's technique on the alto sax have a lot to do with what he played? In another thread on this Forum today (maybe yesterday) someone posted that Art Tatum's technique on piano was unrivalled but sometimes it seemed the technique was driving his solos rather than serving his musical ideas. And some people complained that Oscar Peterson's dazzling piano technique was driving his playing more than any musical ideas were. (I'll here take an agnostic stance toward those claims. I raise them here as cases where technique on other instruments has been said to, at least sometimes, over-influence a great player's performances. So if that were true of a jazz guitarist sometimes, would that be so unusual?)

[mr. beaumont]

Well, i think we're talking about two different things, actually.

To a certain extent, the way you play will directly influence your style...django, for example.

I guess what I'm saying is, ok, JP said he uses downstrokes when he changes strings, and gives a good reason. And that worked for Joe. But what if you hear an idea that just can't be picked that way? Well then, who cares what Joe Pass said.

At a certain point, we have to take all the wisdoms we hear from others, both from teachers directly and the wide range of book and internet one-liners, and get to the crux of the issue: can i play what i want? What techniqie allows me to do so?

[MarkRhodes]

Well, i think we're talking about two different things, actually.

To a certain extent, the way you play will directly influence your style...django, for example.

I guess what I'm saying is, ok, JP said he uses downstrokes when he changes strings, and gives a good reason. And that worked for Joe. But what if you hear an idea that just can't be picked that way? Well then, who cares what Joe Pass said.

Well, I care what Joe Pass said. ) Not that I think he is the last word on this. And he's far from alone in the idea of changing with a downstroke---isn't that a cornerstone of Manouche playing? Charlie Christian used a lot more downstrokes than upstrokes (and that may have inhibited from doing some things he might otherwise have done but I 'm happy we have what he did do, so I'm not complaining.)

I think changing with downstrokes when going from a lower string to a higher one is a habit for many. It's a tough habit to develop for someone who has spent years strictly alternate picking, but it can be done and has been done by quite a few guitarists. Some have the same habit going the other way, while others prefer to change (-from a higher to a lower string) with an upstroke. Either way, they make a habit of it. (Alternate picking is a habit too.)

But I don't think Joe Pass---or anyone else---would cry foul if someone who developed this habit (or one of these habits) and did something else in a particular case because it seemed more effective. That said, I think what we practice well regularly is what we're most apt to execute effectively 'in the moment.'

Addendum: I hope this doesn't sound disagreeable.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I guess what I'm saying is, ok, JP said he uses downstrokes when he changes strings, and gives a good reason. And that worked for Joe. But what if you hear an idea that just can't be picked that way? Well then, who cares what Joe Pass said.

can you think of a real-world example where this could be the case? i can think of many examples that can hardly be picked with down-up (benson's myna bird comes to mind) but none that would require or benefit from down-up.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, right off the top of my head, how about a pedal point lick on say, the third and second strings, pedal on the 3rd. Much easier and faster to alternate.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

Well, right off the top of my head, how about a pedal point lick on say, the third and second strings, pedal on the 3rd. Much easier and faster to alternate.

that's still rather abstract and i'm not even sure i know what a pedal-point lick is. alternating notes on two adjecent strings? in that case i'd pick dd ud ud ud, etc.

[mr. beaumont]

You'd pick up on the third string after the first two downs?

Btw, a pedal point lick uses a pedal--one note, as a constant...so 3rd string C, alternating with D, Eb, and E on the second string. Not an abstract concept.

[MarkRhodes]

Okay, back to the early morning discussion about rest strokes and free strokes being the essence of Benson picking.

I wrote to JC Stylles about this because I don't recall the terms 'rest stroke' and 'free stroke' appearing in his tutorial. (Or those practices called by other names.) But hey, I've been wrong before. So I asked him about this. He is not God, or the Pope, but I do regard him as a master of this technique.

Here is part of what he wrote. (And he wrote to me knowing about the Forum discussion, so I am not going behind his back to excerpt his email here.)

>>>>HI Mark,

At this stage I will just say be careful who you listen to. I have dealt
with guys swearing about "rest strokes" being part and parcel to the
technique. It is not.

Sure , you want to rest on the next string after playing a note on the
string above, you can do that perhaps on a ballad playing long notes, but
simple logic will tell you that if you are playing an uptempo tune, or
doubletime, there will be no time to "rest" on the next string before
choosing your next note.<<<<<


He wrote more but I think this is enough for now.
I do not expect anyone to say, "JC has spoken; the case is closed."
But I do hope that those who previously claimed that the rest stroke is the essence of this technique will allow that a dazzling player and teacher of this technique disagrees.

[3625]

Hi, longtime lurker here.

Concerning the technique of, downstrokes moving with a shape specifically inward toward the body, and hanging 'away' from upon upstroke-- I have seen this mentioned by guitarist Troy Grady on youtube as "downward pick slanting".

The idea is that specifically following even note runs (2-4-6 most common) that begin on a downstroke, the pick when held at that 'downward' slant will cause the upstroke to be outside the strings, freeing you to then move the pick to other strings significantly easier, as it will not be trapped within the strings path.

If you watch several of his videos, he cites Eric Johnson and Yngwie Malmsteen as two very different players who, yet, mechanically are doing very similar things from a picking perspective. I'm sure this could fit into jazz playing as well.

Also, not saying Benson is doing this technique specifically- but I think something about the use of those rest strokes seems reminiscent of this 'grouping' philosophy of odd vs even note runs. And if you listen a bit further to Grady on youtube, he explains the need for grouping the odd/even patterns on strings is because the runs/lines should always be ending on an upstroke-- often, if a hammer on or pull-off/multiple picked note is needed, you implement that so that it ensures that continual end-on-upstroke philosophy.

Hope it isn't overly confusing, small parts of those videos elaborate better.

Zippynine

Hi Zippynine - good post!

I've watched a lot of the Troy Grady stuff too regarding Malmsteen and Eric Johnson and also wondered if GB might be doing the 'odd' ascending and 'even' descending like those guys. (EDIT: it only needs to be 'even' descending, ascending doesn't matter either way) Did I remember correctly that Malmsteen pretty much always uses a downstroke on a string change?
Apart from the 'trailing edge/reverse' pick angle used by Benson, as opposed to 'regular' pick grip, I was struck how their approach was so similar to GB's based on:

- downward pickslanting
- downstrokes on string changes, like nunocpinto describes as taught by Peter Farrell direct from Benson himself.

I gotta say that everything nunocpinto has said here recently makes a lot of sense for me, especially if you want to get closer to GB's sound and feel. Also remember he said that GB himself doesn't use the pad of his pinky, instead he uses the sides of his third and fourth fingers.

I originally read somewhere that Rodney Jones taught consecutive downstrokes ascending, and alternate descending and based my playing off that, given that JC doesn't really give specific advice in this area. What I discovered over time was that I ending up naturally doing the 'even' descending anyway - so every string change turned out to be a downstroke! It wasn't that I was trying to adhere to a strict rule, but rather I unconsciously organised the fingering of my lines based off what felt right. You could say that it's still alternate picking when descending, it's just that you avoid doing upstrokes for a string change because it feels weird and clumsy, at least for me.

Has anyone else found this?

IMO you can pretty much do what you want with this technique in terms of picking direction and free vs. rest strokes - except the consecutive upsweeps across strings doesn't really gel with Benson picking - JC once confirmed this to me via email and I agree. Although that Dan Wilson technique vid had me scratching my head a bit, but that looked more like a sweep/arpeggio exercise, not bop lines. Does anyone know (Destinytot?) what his picking direction is for bop lines?

[dortmundjazzguitar]

>>>>HI Mark,

At this stage I will just say be careful who you listen to. I have dealt
with guys swearing about "rest strokes" being part and parcel to the
technique. It is not.

Sure , you want to rest on the next string after playing a note on the
string above, you can do that perhaps on a ballad playing long notes, but
simple logic will tell you that if you are playing an uptempo tune, or
doubletime, there will be no time to "rest" on the next string before
choosing your next note.<<<<<

i'm glad nobody told perry hughes about this simple logic:

[dortmundjazzguitar]

You'd pick up on the third string after the first two downs?

Btw, a pedal point lick uses a pedal--one note, as a constant...so 3rd string C, alternating with D, Eb, and E on the second string. Not an abstract concept.

yes i pick up after two downs. dd ud ud ud ud. economy down, alternate up.

[destinytot]

Although that Dan Wilson technique vid had me scratching my head a bit, but that looked more like a sweep/arpeggio exercise, not bop lines. Does anyone know (Destinytot?) what his picking direction is for bop lines?

I can't remember, 3625, but I'll check the recording tomorrow and quote what he said verbatim.

I didn't study picking with Dan, but it came up when when looking at options for chord soloing and double stops. We only touched on picking, but he told me I needed to work on my right hand. I do remember being wowed by Dan's incredibly fast-but-smooth arpeggios in all inversions - they didn't sound at all like an exercise - and that when I expressed my amazement, he said that he liked to use arpeggios to launch lines.

At that time, I didn't want to play bop. I do now, but I can't...yet..!

You could say that it's still alternate picking when descending, it's just that you avoid doing upstrokes for a string change because it feels weird and clumsy

It doesn't feel weird or clumsy to me any more, but I hasten to add that - to paraphrase nunocpinto - I found myself playing 'with confidence and authority' for about ten seconds yesterday using downstrokes with this picking, EDIT and I'm going to get into the habit of using downstrokes on string changes. The Art of Change:

"Pauses in movement, some lasting a fraction of a second, and others lasting many seconds, are used as opportunities to observe, and to find alternatives to, one's habitual patterns. These patterns include not just habits of posture and movement, but also mental attitudes and recurrent emotions." (from the website of Paris-based Alexander Technique teacher, Ulysses Chang Alexander Technique in Paris with Ulysses Chuang)

[Shadow of the Sun]

Now. I'll admit that I don't have JC Stylles' tutorial, or teaching from Peter Farrell or Rodney Jones. I'm just basing my picking off of what I see good players do and what feels comfortable and easy for me.

If I'm playing on a single string, or I'm playing a line that ascends from the low strings to the high strings, I typically stick with rest stroke picking.

If however I am playing a line that descends from the high strings to the low strings, I will use consecutive upstrokes if I need to, and if my line features a downstoke on a higher string before changing to a lower string, I'll use a freestroke.

Is this correct to the style? I have no idea. Will it lead me to grief later on down the line? Quite possibly, I don't know. But it makes sense for me now, and I can continue to pick with a loose, relaxed wrist without tensing up as I get faster, so I think I'll keep on doing it.

[destinytot]

Now. I'll admit that I don't have JC Stylles' tutorial, or teaching from Peter Farrell or Rodney Jones. I'm just basing my picking off of what I see good players do and what feels comfortable and easy for me.

If I'm playing on a single string, or I'm playing a line that ascends from the low strings to the high strings, I typically stick with rest stroke picking.

If however I am playing a line that descends from the high strings to the low strings, I will use consecutive upstrokes if I need to, and if my line features a downstoke on a higher string before changing to a lower string, I'll use a freestroke.

Is this correct to the style? I have no idea. Will it lead me to grief later on down the line? Quite possibly, I don't know. But it makes sense for me now, and I can continue to pick with a loose, relaxed wrist without tensing up as I get faster, so I think I'll keep on doing it.

That makes sense to me, too - if it's working, that's great.

I started playing in public to accompany my singing. I could always hear more than I could play. Over the last few years, I've got into playing acoustic archtop in Marty Grosz's style. Great for the ears... trouble is, I'm only realising now that I've transferred the habit of hitting strings hard from my acoustic (with its extremely heavy strings, e.g. the 6th is .80) to my electric/semi...

Now that I want to go further, it's dawning on me that my habit of overplaying is a chronic problem. There is a lot that I can do on my own, but I can only go so far without help. (There's a Spanish proverb that says, "If you want to travel fast, walk alone. If you want to travel far, walk in company.")

If however I am playing a line that descends from the high strings to the low strings, I will use consecutive upstrokes if I need to, and if my line features a downstroke on a higher string before changing to a lower string, I'll use a freestroke

Me too - but my picking is clumsy at speed. However, my picking is already showing signs of improvement.

In my case, JC Stylles's specialised coaching is helping me sort my picking out. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to learn from Peter Farrell, Rodney Jones, but - frankly - I'm thrilled about the vision and focus of JC's feedback. I couldn't emphasise enough how useful it is in helping me make progress towards the goals I've set myself. In a very down-to-earth way, he makes sure the student knows what the technique looks and sounds like. He also seems to have a radar for error, and his correction and advice is prompt and highly effective. Obviously, I recommend it.

[Philco]

In Perry Hughes clip I see a whole picking method. Tailored for Bop. Allowing you to play effortlessly across strings in both directions. Allowing you to play the chord shapes and nasty string changes that one avoids or just can't play using strict alternate picking. It has a certain flowing sound to it.

These guys had it figured out way back then. The gypsy players figured out their own way as well. Chord based playing. Not scale based playing......generally speaking. That doesn't mean that no scale fragments are played of course.
Most of us have come from scale based playing where alternate picking is the norm.
Still strikes me as strange that this "rest stroke" and changing string concept is not a commonly taught method.
It's like we are slowly unraveling what I would have thought should be common knowledge.
I would like to have some command of both methods.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

In Perry Hughes clip I see a whole picking method. Tailored for Bop. Allowing you to play effortlessly across strings in both directions. Allowing you to play the chord shapes and nasty string changes that one avoids or just can't play using strict alternate picking. It has a certain flowing sound to it.

These guys had it figured out way back then. The gypsy players figured out their own way as well. Chord based playing. Not scale based playing......generally speaking. That doesn't mean that no scale fragments are played of course.
Most of us have come from scale based playing where alternate picking is the norm.
Still strikes me as strange that this "rest stroke" and changing string concept is not a commonly taught method.
It's like we are slowly unraveling what I would have thought should be common knowledge.
I would like to have some command of both methods.

exactly! i posted about the similarities between the gipsy players and the "benson" school before. i'm still hesitant to call it benson picking because i think it's just the traditional way most black guitarists played from the 40s onward. but the similarities go beyond that. there are still intact "apprenticeship" systems in both cultures. just go to youtube and watch a random black church band. the "church scene" has produced the most amazing players (think isaiah sharkey), just like the gipsy culture still produces great player after great player (even if they are mostly unknown to outsiders).

as for the slowed-down perry hughes clip that destiny posted, i'm amazed that there is still so much speculation when everything is there to be clearly seen by anyone. i hope that mark pulled JCs comments about the impossibility of restrokes somehow out of context. it's such an odd comment.

[ecj]

In Perry Hughes clip I see a whole picking method. Tailored for Bop. Allowing you to play effortlessly across strings in both directions. Allowing you to play the chord shapes and nasty string changes that one avoids or just can't play using strict alternate picking. It has a certain flowing sound to it.

These guys had it figured out way back then. The gypsy players figured out their own way as well. Chord based playing. Not scale based playing......generally speaking. That doesn't mean that no scale fragments are played of course.
Most of us have come from scale based playing where alternate picking is the norm.
Still strikes me as strange that this "rest stroke" and changing string concept is not a commonly taught method.
It's like we are slowly unraveling what I would have thought should be common knowledge.
I would like to have some command of both methods.

The internet is giving us a little renaissance vis a viz picking methods on guitar. Thanks to guys like Michael Horowitz, Rodney Jones, Henry Johnson, and Troy Grady, we're getting a little insight into what works and what doesn't.

I think Mel Bay, Leavitt, et al, did a huge disservice to the guitar playing community with their instructional materials. I'll probably get flack for saying that, but especially in the case of jazz (and really bebop) guitar playing, there's almost no one out there who is considered one of the "greats" that plays even remotely similarly to what the major instructional materials recommend (CAGED or Leavitt position playing, alternate picking). Once you get past thinking of those things as the default and start to break down what the greats are actually doing, it's kind of amazing.

That being said, I'm still committed to having good alt-picking chops, due to it's general usefulness across other music styles. I've been working on transcribing my favorite rest stroke jazzers (Django, Christian, Montgomery, Benson, Pass) to work on the rest-stroke technique, and playing through some method books to work on my alt-picking.

The Benson picking grip works equally well for both, as JC Stylles' playing clearly demonstrates.

[ecj]

exactly! i posted about the similarities between the gipsy players and the "benson" school before. i'm still hesitant to call it benson picking because i think it's just the traditional way most black guitarists played from the 40s onward. but the similarities go beyond that. there are still intact "apprenticeship" systems in both cultures. just go to youtube and watch a random black church band. the "church scene" has produced the most amazing players (think isaiah sharkey), just like the gipsy culture still produces great player after great player (even if they are mostly unknown to outsiders).

as for the slowed-down perry hughes clip that destiny posted, i'm amazed that there is still so much speculation when everything is there to be clearly seen by anyone. i hope that mark pulled JCs comments about the impossibility of restrokes somehow out of context. it's such an odd comment.

It's very possible that JC's alt picking chops developed so well that he never really had to question the method or look to other ways of playing things, and that the whole rest-stroke thing seems weird to him because he never needed it.

I mean, go watch his vids, the dude can play at whatever tempo he needs to, no rest-strokes required.

This is a good vid to see the differences. Reinhardt plays in the traditional gypsy system. Oberg tends to default to alt-picking. They're both crazy good:

[destinytot]

exactly! i posted about the similarities between the gipsy players and the "benson" school before. i'm still hesitant to call it benson picking because i think it's just the traditional way most black guitarists played from the 40s onward. but the similarities go beyond that. there are still intact "apprenticeship" systems in both cultures. just go to youtube and watch a random black church band. the "church scene" has produced the most amazing players (think isaiah sharkey), just like the gipsy culture still produces great player after great player (even if they are mostly unknown to outsiders).

as for the slowed-down perry hughes clip that destiny posted, i'm amazed that there is still so much speculation when everything is there to be clearly seen by anyone. i hope that mark pulled JCs comments about the impossibility of restrokes somehow out of context. it's such an odd comment.

I think the term 'rest stroke' is a red-herring because of connotations added in translation (from languges other than English). As a term of art, I think it's tossed around too casually in talk of this technique.

Personally, I appreciate the term 'trampoline', though I doubt it'll catch on. Whatever one calls it, the concept applied feels good.

However, when JC says 'uptempo', I understand that he's talking about a level of speed that's completely beyond my playing experience. I sit up and listen.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I think the term 'rest stroke' is a red-herring because of connotations added in translation (from languges other than English). As a term of art, I think it's tossed around too casually in talk of this technique.

Personally, I appreciate the term 'trampoline', though I doubt it'll catch on. Whatever one calls it, the concept applied feels good.

However, when JC says 'uptempo', I understand that he's talking about a level of speed that's completely beyond my playing experience. I sit up and listen.

nahh, reststrokes are reststrokes. it's a common term and people know what it means. JC is a fine player and can obviously play anyway he likes. but reststrokes *are* an essential part of the benson picking. without reststrokes it's JC stylles picking. which is fine. but to claim that common logic implies the impossibility of reststrokes at higher tempos is just nonsense and hopefully some misunderstanding.

here's another nice one:

all downstrokes are reststokes. wanna bet?

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=Philco;518983 Chord based playing. Not scale based playing......generally speaking. That doesn't mean that no scale fragments are played of course.
[/QUOTE]

Herb Ellis played out of chord shapes and could wind it up pretty fast and sounded good doing so. He never talked much about picking, though. The most advice he ever gave (that I know of) is in this portion of an instructional DVD (-originally, videocassette) he made. This excerpt is ten minutes long and he starts talking about picking at 7:45. (He's not a Benson picker but as we are all obsessed with picking it's worth knowing one great jazz guitarist's advice to budding players was.)

And here is Herb with Barney Kessel doing the theme from "The Flintstones."

[destinytot]

nahh, reststrokes are reststrokes.

The term is obviously useful to many for discussion of the picking technique. I don't use it myself. Definitions - my own and other people's - matter to me. The process matters more than the name.

I understand what it denotes here, and the point that

all downstrokes are reststokes

does resonate with me. I can relate to it through singing and playing melodies with a definite directive.

But I find it awe-inspiring to witness such fluid playing at such great speed, with notes that seem to 'pop' (as Benson put it in the '70s interview I posted last year) - and that's the prize on which I'm keeping my eye.

[Zip09]

Hi Zippynine - good post!

I've watched a lot of the Troy Grady stuff too regarding Malmsteen and Eric Johnson and also wondered if GB might be doing the 'odd' ascending and 'even' descending like those guys. (EDIT: it only needs to be 'even' descending, ascending doesn't matter either way) Did I remember correctly that Malmsteen pretty much always uses a downstroke on a string change?
Apart from the 'trailing edge/reverse' pick angle used by Benson, as opposed to 'regular' pick grip, I was struck how their approach was so similar to GB's based on:

- downward pickslanting
- downstrokes on string changes, like nunocpinto describes as taught by Peter Farrell direct from Benson himself.

Hi 3625,

In honesty, I'm not certain GB is utilizing the downward pick slant-- Grady himself is careful to mention that the trailing edge guys (Benson, Peter F, Rodney, Paul Gilbert...usually) have a tendency to create visibly more 'minute' movements to the observing eye, versus the typical downward pick slanter (though he does mention Yngwie as an exception). Naturally then, if it's difficult for mere mortal vision to discern this going on with the more 'exaggerated' downward slanting, the reverse Benson grip is even more dodgy.

Malmsteen almost always ends the final note on an upstroke-- and like Eric, will often implement a hammer/pull somewhere in between to end on that upstroke. Obviously the exception would be sweeps, but I'd bet there are others as well. There's just only so much quality footage of these guys out there, even in 2015.

The more videos into it you go, the theme, or specifically term of 'chunking' re-appears: memorizing groups of even/odd note patterns. He goes over how to retain alot of phrases by doing this, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other greats don't have their own similar versions. Underneath all of the fog and mysticism of a player like Martino (who I've always associated as closest to the picking guru's version of a Holdsworth) it could really just be a more wordily presented and overly-intricate version of Grady's chunking. Who knows...I don't!

Personally, I've tried the downward slant a number of times, and haven't really experienced that "a-ha!" moment he describes himself having in that, "Down for the Upstroke" 'poptart' lick. And, again, I don't particularly enjoy the tone the grip produces as opposed to almost any other. Admittedly though, it would seem in theory atleast possibly the most efficient way of picking involving much faster runs. With the pick never really being inside strings upon a change, suddenly that long-existing problem is gone. I mean no guy I ever heard ever had remotely efficient or reasoned explanations on how to get around that on licks except, 'play slowly, cleanly, watch your hand. Muscle memory will come". The problem is, it seems to for some, and for a hell of a lot of others, it never does. And I mean...not even close. So I'm glad atleast there's someone like a Grady out there for everyone to see in close-up, high quality examples. And the clarity of some of those distorted lines at those speeds? Get outta here..

[MarkRhodes]

as for the slowed-down perry hughes clip that destiny posted, i'm amazed that there is still so much speculation when everything is there to be clearly seen by anyone. i hope that mark pulled JCs comments about the impossibility of restrokes somehow out of context. it's such an odd comment.

Mark did not pull JC's comment out of context. The context of comment was precisely, 'are rest strokes the essence of this technique?' JC said two things. First, he is familiar with this claim. Second, he thinks it is wrong. JC knows what he is talking about and meant what he said. He doesn't think rest strokes are the essence (-or 'part and parcel') of the technique.

He didn't say anything about Perry Hughes. Perhaps you can contact Perry and invite him here to discuss this further. I'd be happy to listen to his views on this. But I don't see how you think posting a clip of Perry playing is somehow proof that JC doesn't know how Benson picking works.