Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Groyniad]

picking becomes a way of moving in time to the music

you use a bit of your hand as a stand for the rest of your hand - then it can just sort of hang there.

just hanging there chilled out like that, it finds it very easy to move around in a groovy way dictated by the pulse of the music. the change in feel (over any kind of picking that requires you to hold your hand up and in place as well as pick) is hard to exaggerate.

get with a metronome and feel the wrist become part of the music at last. (i think mine was just about ready to give up on me and go it was so fed up with being treated so wrong)

every time my picking becomes less efficient i concentrate on 2 things: letting the pinky perform the function of a hand-stand (i.e. not just resting it there and starting to hold my hand up myself, but letting the bones of the pinky hold the hand up and in place); and lightening up the grip on the pick - and the efficiency returns.

[Groyniad]

You can include upstrokes rest strokes ( Benson does it, and others, but when they do they reverse the picking, mirror like), but only after you master the other way around, doing that will make you hand confused, because you use another set of muscles in the harm.

On alternate picking - downstrokes rest strokes / into the guitar (down "In stroke") on up strokes / Out of the guitar "Out Stroke" (free).

No, you should just stick to the rule - every string change is a downstroke. Everything else is alternate (using the principles above).

great stuff man! thank you very much!!

the up-stroke as mirror image of down-stroke idea - fantastic

the downstrokes INTO the guitar, upstrokes OUT OF the guitar idea - i've played with this a bit and it feels like it improves accuracy enormously - thanks

the thing about not confusing your hand with the reverse picking movement whilst you're learning the technique - this is also a very big deal. thanks again

[Zip09]

great stuff man! thank you very much!!

the up-stroke as mirror image of down-stroke idea - fantastic

the downstrokes INTO the guitar, upstrokes OUT OF the guitar idea - i've played with this a bit and it feels like it improves accuracy enormously - thanks

the thing about not confusing your hand with the reverse picking movement whilst you're learning the technique - this is also a very big deal. thanks again

Hi, longtime lurker here.

Concerning the technique of, downstrokes moving with a shape specifically inward toward the body, and hanging 'away' from upon upstroke-- I have seen this mentioned by guitarist Troy Grady on youtube as "downward pick slanting".

The idea is that specifically following even note runs (2-4-6 most common) that begin on a downstroke, the pick when held at that 'downward' slant will cause the upstroke to be outside the strings, freeing you to then move the pick to other strings significantly easier, as it will not be trapped within the strings path.

If you watch several of his videos, he cites Eric Johnson and Yngwie Malmsteen as two very different players who, yet, mechanically are doing very similar things from a picking perspective. I'm sure this could fit into jazz playing as well.

Also, not saying Benson is doing this technique specifically- but I think something about the use of those rest strokes seems reminiscent of this 'grouping' philosophy of odd vs even note runs. And if you listen a bit further to Grady on youtube, he explains the need for grouping the odd/even patterns on strings is because the runs/lines should always be ending on an upstroke-- often, if a hammer on or pull-off/multiple picked note is needed, you implement that so that it ensures that continual end-on-upstroke philosophy.

Hope it isn't overly confusing, small parts of those videos elaborate better.

Zippynine

[Shadow of the Sun]

Well, one of the things I've found with Benson picking compared to Gypsy Picking as given in Horowitz's book is that due to how we hold the pick in Benson picking means that we can do upstrokes on descending string changes without snagging on the strings, like we would if we were gypsy picking.

I guess we need to get the rest strokes perfect before we can begin to look at using upstrokes. I do like using upstrokes for sweeping multiple strings, however.

[MarkRhodes]

Hi, longtime lurker here.

Concerning the technique of, downstrokes moving with a shape specifically inward toward the body, and hanging 'away' from upon upstroke-- I have seen this mentioned by guitarist Troy Grady on youtube as "downward pick slanting".

Zippynine

Glad you've gone from lurking to posting!
I'll look at some Troy Grady stuff on YouTube. (I'm unfamiliar with him.)

[Groyniad]

this forum really is amazing if you want help on very technical issues

fantastic

so now - another blinding insight:

you can't talk about down strokes on all string changes (for example) without starting to say something about left hand fingering

i think because i have a phobia of over-specific fingering approaches (i don't want to be thinking of fingering patterns but of phrases etc. etc.) i've never been systematic about fingering

now i realize that if, in playing my exercises (scale fragments - triad triplet phrases etc. etc.) i combine playing even and odd numbers of notes on different strings i generate picking issues which no amount of right hand development is going to change

i just discovered - thanks to a man named troy grady - that if i've just played a slanting up stroke (away from the guitar) and i then move to a lower string i'm in perfect position to play a slanting down stroke; but if i've just played a slanting downstroke and try to move to a lower string, i have to pick up the pick and let it fall down again (and that's not very cool).

down strokes on string changes when moving up the way to a higher string are fine either way (i think)

so if i invent ways of fingering my practice patterns (which will eventually become my playing patterns) that ensures that i play even numbers of notes on each string and i start on a down beat with a down stroke (geez!) then i can avoid all nasty picking hiccups

(the moment i start sounding like troy grady - god bless him - i'm going to stop this whole thing!)

[nunocpinto]

that makes no sense at all to me. even a simple major scale would be a pita to play with only even numbers. the whole benson picking/fingering system is based on mixing odd and even numbers. since we do *not* attack every note but use all kinds of slurs, hammer-ons and pull-offs, it is totally pointless to assign even numbers to each string. and associating downstrokes to downbeats is the opposite approach to benson's.

the whole system has been layed out in this thread:

-reststrokes from low to high
-free strokes from high to low
-always downstrokes when changing strings from low to high
-mostly alternate from high to low (sweeps may be executed with consecutive upsrokes)
-slight anchoring of 3rd or 4th finger on the pickguard or the high e-string

dortmundjazzguitar;

the whole system has been layed out in this thread:

-rest strokes from low to high

Correct

-free strokes from high to low

Not correct, the same system is applied up and down

-always down strokes when changing strings from low to high

Not correct, always down strokes when changing from high to low and vice versa.

-mostly alternate from high to low (sweeps may be executed with consecutive upstrokes)

Not correct, see answer above.

-slight anchoring of 3rd or 4th finger on the pickguard or the high e-string

3rd or 4th finger anchoring yes, high e-string not so much

the whole system has been layed out in this thread:

Well, if that was the case we would have stopped this tread long time ago.

[AlainJazz]

that makes no sense at all to me. even a simple major scale would be a pita to play with only even numbers. the whole benson picking/fingering system is based on mixing odd and even numbers. since we do *not* attack every note but use all kinds of slurs, hammer-ons and pull-offs, it is totally pointless to assign even numbers to each string. and associating downstrokes to downbeats is the opposite approach to benson's.

the whole system has been layed out in this thread:

-reststrokes from low to high
-free strokes from high to low
-always downstrokes when changing strings from low to high
-mostly alternate from high to low (sweeps may be executed with consecutive upsrokes)
-slight anchoring of 3rd or 4th finger on the pickguard or the high e-string

I think that sums it up pretty well. At least concerning what I'm doing. Mind you, I was doing the mix of rest stroke and alternate picking (some people call this economy picking) even before I tried the benson technique so I haven't changed anything there.

[nunocpinto]

i learned this technique from rodney jones. there are no reststokes on upstrokes. if you got a vid from benson, wilson, hughes or johnson where you can see a upstoke-reststroke while changing strings from high to low i'd like to see it.

dortmundjazzguitar; i never said that, you must ready carefully what i wrote. I said rest strokes / downstrokes on every string changes up and down. But there are places were Benson and others you mention use upstroke sweeps mainly playing triplets. When they do it, they invert the picking (mirror like) and rest stroke.

PS: learn this from Peter Farrell: the only student George has teached for years

[nunocpinto]

yes, i made a typo that may cause misunderstanding. to clarify:

downstrokes are *always" reststrokes, upstrokes are *never* reststrokes, except in a sweeping situation. the default picking is: economy from low to high, alternate from high to low. also when changing from high to low there are no consecutive downstrokes as you implied. it defies the principle of this technique. also *no* fixed anchoring with the tip of the pinky. the right hand must stay movable. if you watch benson closely you'll see that he indeed quite often anchors slightly under the highest string.

down strokes are *always" rest strokes, upstrokes are *never* rest strokes, except in a sweeping situation.

Yes, that's correct.

the default picking is: economy from low to high, alternate from high to low.

No, the same principle is applied, down and up.

also when changing from high to low there are no consecutive down strokes as you implied.

It can happen: how do do you play a fast arpeggio down on all of the stings after an ascending line to the E string?

also *no* fixed anchoring with the tip of the pinky. the right hand must stay movable.

No, this is the single reason why most people that try this technique abandon it, or if they stick to it are permanently on a "limbo" were they progress is very dim and unsubstantial over time. The anchoring is fixed but the hand moves, but it gives you a reference point and allows you hand and arm to be totally relaxed = zero tension

[Philco]

yes, i made a typo that may cause misunderstanding. to clarify:

downstrokes are *always" reststrokes, upstrokes are *never* reststrokes, except in a sweeping situation. the default picking is: economy from low to high, alternate from high to low. also when changing from high to low there are no consecutive downstrokes as you implied. it defies the principle of this technique. also *no* fixed anchoring with the tip of the pinky. the right hand must stay movable. if you watch benson closely you'll see that he indeed quite often anchors slightly under the highest string.

This pretty much sums up the approach that I have reached. But it seems the rules are general and not unbreakable.
There are some Benson licks where I THINK (well it's so fast I can see no alternative) he is using 3 up strokes from high to low strings and yet it's not a sweep, just 3 staccato notes in a row and each note on the next string below....which equals 3 rest up strokes in a row.....so the rule is broken. It's like a backward sweep.......but not a sweep cos it's not a triplet.
Perhaps this what nunocpinto is referring to.

Thing is...once you know it can be done then you can start messing with your own ideas as this technique empowers you to do so. That's the best part.

As far as the anchoring......you can clearly see the GB is anchored one minute then sliding the next, then completely off somewhere else, strumming or whatever. BUT when he is playing the complex fast lines he is almost always anchored solid.....either hooked under the E string or the normal Benson side of the pinky and third finger curled.
In fact if I am ever feeling a little messy I simply put pressure on the side of my pinky and suddenly everything becomes easy and accurate again. That really works for me.

[destinytot]

yes, i made a typo that may cause misunderstanding.

That's a relief!

Actually, I found the typo really helpful because it prompted me to play and observe when I was feeling despondent (after observing how my right-hand overplays in the videos posted yesterday).

I still think my Tai Chi instructor has the most valuable answer: "Relax harder!"

And, even though the discussion is great, I sympathise with the centipede who was asked how he manages to coordinate so many legs ('paralysis by analysis').

[MarkRhodes]

i just discovered - thanks to a man named troy grady - that if i've just played a slanting up stroke (away from the guitar) and i then move to a lower string i'm in perfect position to play a slanting down stroke; but if i've just played a slanting downstroke and try to move to a lower string, i have to pick up the pick and let it fall down again (and that's not very cool).

I looked at some of Troy's YouTube videos last night and found one on Yngwie and the upstroke. I see the point that Troy is making, but when I picked up my guitar to play ("just like yesterday...."), I realized that my upstrokes do not clear the adjacent string upward. (As shown in the video.) They lie between the two, just like my downstrokes do. (I don't use the rest stroke.)

And of course, the Benson pick grip is opposite of Yngwie's 'downward pick slant.' I experimented with that a long time ago but didn't stick with it.

Not knocking it, just see that it doesn't fit in with how I'm playing now.

[nunocpinto]

yes, obviously the rules can be broken. with benson i too have noticed instances where you got consecutive upstrokes (i'm not sure if they are actually restrokes, but it's possible). but the general rules are as described above. everyone can try this:

play 567 on every string from low to high. it's obvious that economy picking helps the flow of the line, you go dud (down-up-down) on every string. this is highly unpractical the other way around. try playing 567 or 765 from high to low strings and pick dud on every string. it does not work very well. maybe peter farrell can pull it off but that's not the benson way of picking which is economy from low to high and alternate from high to low.

there is also this vid from one of rodney's students:

the right-hand is moveable. no anchoring with the tip of the pinky on the pickguard in a jesse-van-ruller-style. either the pinky rests sideways curled or is anchored under the e-string.

dortmundjazzguitar;

play 567 on every string from low to high. it's obvious that economy picking helps the flow of the line, you go dud (down-up-down) on every string. this is highly unpractical the other way around. try playing 567 or 765 from high to low strings and pick dud on every string.

Sorry no offense but i think you are a little confused and misreading the words: i talked before about an arpeggio in the previous post, with one note per string for example. Regarding playing 567 on every string ( i assume you mean repeating the 567 pattern on every string) you would play down-up-down on every string ascending and descending obviously.

But i will not not continue to discuss this further. It's pointless

Best

[nunocpinto]

I realized that my upstrokes do not clear the adjacent string upward. (As shown in the video.) They lie between the two, just like my downstrokes do. (I don't use the rest stroke.)

The upstrokes clearing the adjacent string and the rest strokes on down strokes are the essence of Benson picking Mark.

Best

[destinytot]

I'm no longer comfortable playing while sitting on a low chair/stool. A high one's OK, but I prefer standing now. It seems to help me adopt a better attitude/mindset.

[MarkRhodes]

The upstrokes clearing the adjacent string and the rest strokes are the essence of Benson picking Mark.

Best

Why, if I'm playing consecutive notes on the B string with alternate picking, would I want each upstroke to clear the G string and come back over it for the next note on the B string?


If that's the essence of this then I'm after something else. Which is fine. I don't want to play like George (or Peter, for that matter). My favorite jazz guitarist is Herb Ellis. I want to feel comfortable and confident with my own picking. Working with JC's tutorial, I find myself less often in my own way. That's the goal---get out of my own way.

[destinytot]

Re. 567, just tried it and found it easier to start on a downstroke on each string when going from low strings to higher, and an upstroke on each string when going from high strings to lower.​

EDIT: I've changed my mind about this.

[nunocpinto]

Why, if I'm playing consecutive notes on the B string with alternate picking, would I want each upstroke to clear the G string and come back over it for the next note on the B string?


If that's the essence of this then I'm after something else. Which is fine. I don't want to play like George (or Peter, for that matter). My favorite jazz guitarist is Herb Ellis. I want to feel comfortable and confident with my own picking. Working with JC's tutorial, I find myself less often in my own way. That's the goal---get out of my own way.

I don't want to play like George or Peter either, i am not even what you can call a "fan" of their music.

This technique allows you to play with authority and confidence and can be applied to other kinds of music. And that's preciselly what i want to learn and do.

If the rest stroke on down strokes and clearing the string on the upstrokes is the "pillar" of this specific technique every other approach isn't; which is fine. Just my personal point of view

best

[Zip09]

And of course, the Benson pick grip is opposite of Yngwie's 'downward pick slant.' I experimented with that a long time ago but didn't stick with it.

Not knocking it, just see that it doesn't fit in with how I'm playing now.

Yep, the GB grip is the inverse-- he actually confirms this in a clip somewhere as well.

The thing I do agree with, in regards to a general over-arching narrative of his videos- is how you have to be kind of an engineer with something as technical regarding picking and the inevitable synchronization problems that occur at some point for the majority of guitar players. However, as his video series is an evolving thing, so to will probably be some of his viewpoints later, as more and more people contribute feedback. The big thing he impresses isn't so much the pick-edge angle per se, but the vertical resting place the hand/pick must make in either a.) EJ/Yngwie downward grip or b.) DiMeola like grip, which is known as 'upward pick-slanting'. In either case, the big thing, which is literally almost the entire foundation to his series IMO, is that the opportunity for a string change always occurs on an upstroke, regardless if you are playing a quick line between two strings, or a complex EJ-esque multi string-skipping phrase.

It's also interesting how different the tone produced by the EJ/Malmsteen downward pick slanting is versus the Benson. I just prefer the GB one for this, all around for some reason.

Anyway, of course no one at the end of the day needs/should utilize this; it's just another option, and- I will admit was somewhat revelatory for me. Personally, I can't get the hang of it for descending high-to-low runs. At odds with way too many hours and years of muscle memory doing almost opposite.

[destinytot]

Yay! Just received detailed personalised feedback from JC Stylles.

[Groyniad]

i think the downstroke on all string changes (and into guitar downstrokes; away from guitar upstrokes) is huge. i've been doing lots of reverse descending triplet sweeps but this has been getting ahead of myself a bit i think. to learn the correct hand position and the fundamental movements at the heart of the technique i think this simple principle is golden.

my remarks about finding practice patterns that avoid awkward string changes descending by picking even numbers of notes on each string has caused some bad vibes (if my vibe-ometer is still working properly). i only meant to say that if you're playing an idea over and over (i don't really drill scales or arpeggios as such) it makes sense to finger it in a way that optimizes picking smoothness.

as far as the rules of the technique go - its pretty obvious to me that nunocpinto is on the money and dortmundjazz is not. this is not based on the connection to benson via farrell - just on observation of benson's playing together with how plausible the picture nun paints is.

nunocpintos latest remarks about the importance of a really properly functioning anchor (along with Philcos insightful claims about the way benson does it - i.e. firm anchoring for full on fast passages) - and the consequences of not getting this part of the technique - are really very important indeed it seems to me. i know his advice about the anchor/pivot have finally released me from my personal picking-limbo.

[Groyniad]

me:

but if i've just played a slanting downstroke and try to move to a lower string, i have to pick up the pick and let it fall down again (and that's not very cool).

----
well its not VERY cool - but its totally possible to cope with it - and the pay offs outweigh the trouble. when the picking hand is positioned right and the anchor is working properly, lifting the pick to prepare for a downstroke is quite easy to cope with.

the very early super-400 benson clip at some jazz festival gives a very strong impression of how downstroke heavy his technique is - and how much this contributes to his relaxation and authority and to the super-strong sound he gets

[MarkRhodes]

i think the downstroke on all string changes (and into guitar downstrokes; away from guitar upstrokes) is huge. i've been doing lots of reverse descending triplet sweeps but this has been getting ahead of myself a bit i think. to learn the correct hand position and the fundamental movements at the heart of the technique i think this simple principle is golden.

my remarks about finding practice patterns that avoid awkward string changes descending by picking even numbers of notes on each string has caused some bad vibes (if my vibe-ometer is still working properly). i only meant to say that if you're playing an idea over and over (i don't really drill scales or arpeggios as such) it makes sense to finger it in a way that optimizes picking smoothness.

Joe Pass said he always changed strings with a downstroke because it gave lines more definition. (He never seemed to say much about how he picked, though, or held the pick---he often played without one. Actually, he took a regular pick and cut / tore it in half. But that's another thread....) Jimmy Bruno changes with a downstroke when going from low to high strings and with an upstroke when going from higher to lower ones. (I think Frank Gambale does that too.)

It may sound odd (to some) to talk about practice patterns that facilitate smooth string changes. Obviously, that can lead to a mechanical approach (-much 'shred' guitar playing sounds that way to me) but it doesn't have to. I think many players find something that works and do more things like it---they may never actually count strokes or compare even and odd note groupings but come to know that when they have to 'wind it up' that certain kinds of lines work and others won't.

[mr. beaumont]

The important thing to remember is these aren't absolutes. Joe Pass said he did that...but I'm sure there's exceptions.

Technique should not dictate the lines you play. Technique is means to an end.