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04-04-2015, 09:33 AM #1151destinytot GuestGreat post, Mark - thank you!
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Here, JC seems to be anchoring with the third.
PS. And, to speculate further, it appears to me that JC's using the sides (not the tip or pad) of his third and fourth/pinky fingers.
Last edited by destinytot; 04-04-2015 at 09:50 AM. Reason: PS
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04-04-2015 09:33 AM
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Sometimes it looks like his third finger is the one touching the pickguard but his hand doesn't seem to pivot from it. It seems to be 'touching' more than 'anchoring.' Originally Posted by destinytot
He talks in one short video about control. That's what I want more than speed now. (I think if I GET that, I'll become much faster, and that's good, but it's more important to be able to play things I know, that I have down, that I've practiced and learned, in a more controlled way, more accurate, more definitely 'in the pocket.') I think what keeps me from that is inconsistency in my hand movement.
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The coaching section had close up pics of his hands that answered all these questions: pics set up exactly like the ones nuno posted but with some differences in the actual hand position. I know we're all for free knowledge these days, but anyone who can teach you this stuff is worth compensating. It's not that expensive.
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"When I anchor on the side of the pinky, I'm very inconsistent. The hand seems to slightly 'roll over' away from the strings. When I anchor on the tip of the 3rd finger (-an over-correction most likely, but perhaps a necessary move back in the right direction), I'm much more consistent. "
Mark-
Both the pinky and the ring finger are resting on the pick guard. You say your hand seems to roll over away from the strings. That is what we want it to do. The only reason you would feel it is still inconsistent is because you are not "consistently" doing that action yet. When you anchor the tip of the 3rd finger, that brings you a certain sense of certainty, mostly because you would have carry over habits and muscle memory that are still present from previous picking methods. That's ok, that is normal in the stages of the development. If we think of the phrase "inch by inch, it becomes a cinch", then think of that on a much smaller scale regarding the adjustments of your right hand in fractions of an inch or even millimeters .
The best thing to correct that is to practice the shape away from the instrument as I show you in the Tutorial, holding the pick, and curling both your pinky and ring finger in. You need to train them as much as possible away from the instrument in your downtime so the muscles start to listen to your commands and take you seriously. Until you do that, they will dictate back to you. Only by doing the exercises consistently will they start to yield and recognize that in fact YOU are in charge, not they.
Fingers can be stubborn, hard headed little creatures, and you have to get their respect by re-training them, Once they know you are serious and you Show them who is boss, they WILL get the message. Tell them what and why you are doing this to them- for their own good.
Then finally, you have to be prepared to trust yourself and step into the water, or step off the edge of the ledge.
You are getting yourself ready to do that, but you have to have faith now and step off. If you keep holding onto the certainty of using the tip of your 3rd finger, then you are holding back your own further development. Be prepared to feel uncomfortable again, for that is where the growth lies. The more you face the discomfort (and are prepared to maybe even take one step back), then let it settle in, the more growth you have. We all hit plateaus along the way, but we have to decide whether we will climb the mountain again and face that extra bit of frustration to break through.
Give yourself permission to develop at your own pace, and the fact that you are closely paying attention to something like your 3rd finger shows you are much more tuned into what is going on. Awareness (plus regular action) is the key to progress, and you have shown you have that.
JC Stylles
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I'm for that. Originally Posted by ecj
I think most of the people who are talking about this here have bought JC's tutorial and are in the fine-tuning stage. (Show of hands?)
For those who haven't, I heartily recommend it.
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JC, thanks for the long, detailed answer. What a gift! I'll print a copy and place it on my music stand as a daily reminder and incentive to push further ahead. Originally Posted by JC Stylles
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I know you have, Mark. Just reminding the many lurkers that are probably participating that there are faster ways to get the info. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Point taken. The tutorial is, for me, a no-brainer. For many, it works better than anything else. so there's that. If for any reason, it doesn't work for someone---maybe they physically cannot make 'the shape', or hold it---then they can move along knowing they really gave it a go. Either way, you're better off! ;o) Originally Posted by ecj
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04-05-2015, 08:56 AM #1159destinytot Guest
I've just checked Dan Wilson's words regarding his picking hand (something of an aside during a lesson, and before I started using JC's tutorial):
"I don't get it to an uncomfortable point, like that.
(exaggerates hand position)
I kind of anchor it casually on the pickguard, or - if I don't have a pickguard - where the pickguard would be. But it's never uncomfortable. But somehow, it never leaves the pickguard.
(plays long phrase very fast)
No matter how fast I... you know...
(more very fast playing)
And it's all wrist movement.
(fast playing continues)
I don't use any arm, or forearm. That pinky is just resting on the pickguard. These fingers are just relaxed, the middle and the ring finger (rising intonation, checking that I've understood), they're just relaxed... kinda hangin' out here
(another beautiful line, played very fast)
And no matter what I do, that pinky never leaves the pickguard."
I agree. I spoke to my Tai Chi instructor about 'anchoring' yesterday: his response was his usual "Relax harder!". I'm really looking forward to seeing JC's coaching section images. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
One of the things I admire about the musicianship of Dan, GB and JC - especially in the "Harlem Groove" clip - is the calmness in the control they display, regardless of the storm around them.Last edited by destinytot; 04-05-2015 at 10:27 AM.
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Just noticed this thread has had over 50,000 views. Phil Buckle, you really started something!
By the way, I was playing yesterday and my pinky found the screwhole on the pickguard near the bridge pickup. I kept it there for awhile and realized that my picking motion has been needlessly broad.
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04-06-2015, 10:18 AM #1161destinytot Guest
Thank you to Philco for starting this great thread, and to everyone - naysayers, too - for contributing to the discussion.
Most of all, if he'll forgive my saying so, thanks to JC Stylles.
I know the value of money - especially in tough times like these. And like most - if not all - of us here, I have bills to pay.
But I also know the value of an inspired and inspiring teacher.
I made a serious mistake in not taking full advantage of coaching from one such teacher, who also happens to be a world-class jazz guitarist and recording artist working and performing professionally in New York.
What's more, the answers to a lot of what I've been speculating about are in the tutorial...
But no sackcloth or ashes for me. I've just signed up for coaching and have access to the Member's section. Like many here, I'll be getting the benefit of personalised comments and feedback as I fine-tune my picking - I know the value of that, too.Last edited by destinytot; 04-06-2015 at 10:21 AM. Reason: add icon
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jc styles:
Both the pinky and the ring finger are resting on the pick guard. You say your hand seems to roll over away from the strings. That is what we want it to do. The only reason you would feel it is still inconsistent is because you are not "consistently" doing that action yet. When you anchor the tip of the 3rd finger, that brings you a certain sense of certainty, mostly because you would have carry over habits and muscle memory that are still present from previous picking methods.
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jc - we should not anchor using the tips of our third or fourth fingers. this is very interesting (there's a disagreement here between two authorities)
but we do anchor - so the hand can really relax and doesn't have to hold itself in position all the time
do we anchor by the first joint of third and fourth fingers? - this feels pretty natural to me, and more comfortable than using the pinky-pad or tip. its not so strong an anchor as the pinky pad - but it can certainly still be used as a fundamental part of the technique to anchor/stabilize and to set, precisely and consistently, the position of the hand relative to the strings.
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Originally Posted by destinytot
destinytot; this video you are talking about has a few years already. Maybe you guys are not aware but Dan has had a few lessons with Peter about all the issues we discuss here; so things might be slightly different now.Last edited by nunocpinto; 04-06-2015 at 02:54 PM.
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04-06-2015, 02:51 PM #1164destinytot GuestThat isn't from a video. Originally Posted by nunocpinto
It's from a Skype lesson I had with him.
Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point.
But I've quoted him verbatim.
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nunocpinto - can i ask?
what do you make of jc styles saying we should not anchor using the pinky pad?
is he anchoring by using a different bit of his 4th finger (or of his 3rd and 4th fingers) - or is he not anchoring at all?
in 3 days of practice the anchoring has come to seem totally crucial to me. it lets the hand relax properly (because you don't have to hold it in place any more) and that allows the wrist to move easily and rhythmically etc. etc.
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Groyniad; i made my previous post about these questions because after my 1st lesson with Peter all doubts that i had about learning this technique simply got away, and in the spirit of all that you guys have shared here before give once again a little contribution to clear things up as i see many of you guys struggle with the same problems i experienced. Originally Posted by Groyniad
So to answer you first question: yes, you can anchor using the pinky pad. That's how Peter plays and is playing can speak for itself as most of you already noticed. He observed my hands and told me that as they are more or less like is and that i should try anchoring with the pinky. I did and the results were almost immediate. And i decided to start using it. Now i make improvements every day, before that not so much.
Having this specific anchoring makes my hand reach any string much more efficiently than with the side of the pinky or the pinky and the 3rd finger. So the grip is usable, what is important is to effectively anchor, so you can have your pivot point and your hand and harm are totally relaxed.
The second most important thing is the rest stroke, that will give you the accuracy and the punch and note separation. It's interesting that rest pick will also make you free strokes way easier, but not the other way around. (one informs the other), the more "lightly " you play the rest strokes the better and fluent you will become.Last edited by nunocpinto; 04-06-2015 at 07:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by nunocpinto
as i've said before - you're really helping me out in a big way and i really appreciate it. i've experienced the same leap forwards that you have. dig the rest strokes too - makes everything feel really solid and the sound is very strong.
do you stick closely to the 'no rest strokes - all downstrokes - on descending string changes' rule?
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Peter's fantastic! He sounds very much like Benson or Perry Hughes. I wonder if Perry learned it direct from Benson, too? Originally Posted by nunocpinto
All downstrokes are rest strokes, all strings changes are are also downtrokes / rest strokes. Stick to that then your hand will learn to "negotiate" when other solutions are needed (free strokes).
Just watch Peter's solo over The Police tune "Message in a Bottle" ( the first solo) and see how frightening is accuracy and timing is
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Henry Johnson, JC Stylles, and Russell Malone are all guys who seem to have adapted the Benson system to doing their own thing.
I like JC Stylles' approach a lot, and it worked best for me. I think there are probably a lot of different ways to attack this animal.
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and how about dan wilson? wow.
this is a beautiful clip - mr pearson's playing is very musical indeed
on the clip with him doing arpeggios a few pages back it seems obvious to me that he's doing upstroke rest strokes not just down stroke rest strokes.
he says 'i don't know why but this is the rule i live by....' - and then he doesn't say what the rule is clearly at all - i.e. whether its all downstroke rest strokes or its downstroke rest strokes going one way and up stroke rest strokes coming back...
anyone any idea?
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04-07-2015, 06:36 AM #1170destinytot GuestRe-reading whole thread, and... Bingo! Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Knocked me out. Thanks. It's like the Energizer bunny----it keeps on going and going and going. Stellar rhythm playing. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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those are the two ways to turn a bit of your picking hand into a stand or pivot or fulcrum for the rest of it to move around.
- the straight pinky - can be at all sorts of different angles - from lying almost parallel to the pick guard with just the tip getting purchase - to going almost straight into it like a straight tent-pole going into the ground.
- the bent pinky - you use the first joint of the pinky to hold the rest of the hand in the desired position - this does not lift the hand as high away from the strings as the straight pinky can (if used more tent-pole style) - but with e.g. dan wilson's very long fingers this will be a benefit.
the second one does not work so easily as a hand-stand as the first - but if you keep remembering to use it as a stand and not just to rest it there - it does basically the same job as the pinky (you get a less articulated and slightly warmer sound - which you might like or not)
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anyone got any views about whether the style is well suited to including upstroke rest strokes
when you alternate pick on a single string are the upstrokes rest strokes?
should you avoid phrases that require upstroke string changes (descending obviously)?
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You can include upstrokes rest strokes ( Benson does it, and others, but when they do they reverse the picking, mirror like), but only after you master the other way around, doing that will make you hand confused, because you use another set of muscles in the harm. Originally Posted by Groyniad
On alternate picking - downstrokes rest strokes / into the guitar (down "In stroke") on up strokes / Out of the guitar "Out Stroke" (free).
No, you should just stick to the rule - every string change is a downstroke. Everything else is alternate (using the principles above).Last edited by nunocpinto; 04-07-2015 at 10:55 AM.
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04-07-2015, 12:01 PM #1174destinytot Guest
Three immediate changes for me:
1. Going back to a Medium for Benson picking on the semi (and to 'figure of eight' strumming on acoustic, with a loosely-held D'Andrea Pro-Plec).
2. Floating my wrist enough to raise it off the bridge - Balducci levitation!
3. Going back to Polytone for gigging.
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I know that a lot of people who haven't tried this must think we are nuts to discuss the minutae of picking over pages and pages. For me, this is one of the best threads on the Internet. I've been working on this for almost a year and feel quite comfortable with it, but every once in a while I still read something here that gives me a further boost. The "pinky fulcrum" and keeping my hand off the bridge is really paying off in a big way and taken the technique to a new level.
To me this thread (and of course JC's tutorial) has solved the uptempo picking issue once and for all. Now it is almost always my left hand that can't keep up.
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