Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[nunocpinto]

Had a lesson a few weeks back with one of Benson's pupils; and still a few more to come. It was amazing and i was able to understand clearly what was still eluding me.

Right Hand:

1º - anchoring is very important and it's constant and you should never move it. it's the hand that moves from that pivot point. there are two types of possible anchoring depending on how your hands shape is: like Benson with the two fingers ( he does it like that because he has "chubby" and big hands); or with just the pinky on the pickguard , the pad of the pinky, not the side. (Adam Rogers play like this)

2º - rest strokes on downstrokes and every string change is a downstroke. sometimes (depending on the architecture of the line ) you start a phrase/arpeggio with an upstroke. But also free strokes depending on the effect you want ( softer sound for example because rest stroking makes the picking very harsh sometimes for certain musical passages, and in situations were is impossible to do rest stroke picking ).

3º - In slow/medium tempos you use the wrist to play, on higer tempos you use the arm. That's were the speed comes.

Left Hand:

1º - The left hand covers a 5 fret span, and not 4 as usually done. Obviously you use a 4 fingers in 4 frets if you are doing a chromatic line, it's not strict. the 5 fret span is used to accommodate things to make sweeping easier with the rest stroke picking and the "horizontal" way that benson plays.

[3625]

Nunocpinto - thanks heaps for that. Did you get this from Peter Farrell or someone else?

[nunocpinto]

Yes, from Peter

[Philco]

1º - anchoring is very important and it's constant and you should never move it. it's the hand that moves from that pivot point.

*it's the hand that moves from that pivot point*

I have found this to be incredibly important.
Thanks for confirming.

[destinytot]

*it's the hand that moves from that pivot point*

I have found this to be incredibly important.
Thanks for confirming.

Yes.

There was discussion of the term 'anchor' a while back. (Dan Wilson stressed the idea in a Skype lesson.) 'Pivot point' puts it well.

Since changing picks, I've gone back to closed hand & figure-of-eight for rhythm playing on acoustic archtop because I find I can transfer the feel of 'Pick Flop' using a Pro-Plec 351. I'm enjoying it more, and therefore relaxing more.

I think relaxation ties in directly with this aspect of Benson picking - rotation?

on higer tempos you use the arm. That's were the speed comes.

[MarkRhodes]

its amazing how much the tone changes with the tiniest movement of the thumb at the back of the pick. this is no doubt why jc stresses that finding the sound/feel you like is crucial and largely - with this amazing technique - comes down to exactly where you place the thumb on the pick

I too am amazed at how much difference that makes. I haven't seen JC's tutorial in a long time (it was saved to my previous computer which died suddenly and from which I managed to save precisely nothing). So the first thing I did after watching the 'Advanced Tips' clip is try to move my thumb further back on the pick, with that "healthy third" protruding. It worked! Much more flex than I had ever had and the pick didn't shoot out like a watermelon seed or a tiddly wink. So I'm happier with my playing now than I have ever been. It took me awhile to develop the muscle so that I could hold the pick this way. (Well, I had the muscle earlier but wasn't far enough back on the pick. Not nearly far enough back. I just got stuck being a bit more 'choked up' on it.)

Happy days are here again.....

[MarkRhodes]

By the way, JC, if you're listening, what kind of pick do you use now?

I've now gone back to the D'Andrea Medium (-like a Fender Medium but, for me, a better grip). Playing this way definitely re-shapes the pick a bit. (After playing for an hour or so, the pick retains a slight curve from the thumb's pressure.)

[nunocpinto]

I think relaxation ties in directly with this aspect of Benson picking - rotation?

yes, relaxation that is enabled by the anchoring (it's like you hand is "glued" to the pickguard). Rotation not so much. on fast tempos you use the same movement used in strumming (up and down, the entire harm moves up and down) but applied just to one string at a time, very controlled and tinny movements.

regarding the flex, the pick is handled very gently between your fingers an "flops" up and down; and that's what produces that punchy sound, but i stress once again you can only perceive this if you are "properly" anchored and with a completely relaxed arm, hand and fingers.

Watch closely this video from Peter and see the difference between slow / medium tempos and fast tempos.

[destinytot]

Rotation not so much. on fast tempos you use the same movement used in strumming (up and down, the entire harm moves up and down) but applied just to one string at a time, very controlled and tinny movements.

Thank you very much, nunocpinto!

[destinytot]

You are then in control of your tonal destiny, without technical restrictions.

Love this, JC!

[Groyniad]

Had a lesson a few weeks back with one of Benson's pupils; and still a few more to come. It was amazing and i was able to understand clearly what was still eluding me.

Right Hand:

1º - anchoring is very important and it's constant and you should never move it. it's the hand that moves from that pivot point. there are two types of possible anchoring depending on how your hands shape is: like Benson with the two fingers ( he does it like that because he has "chubby" and big hands); or with just the pinky on the pickguard , the pad of the pinky, not the side. (Adam Rogers play like this)

2º - rest strokes on downstrokes and every string change is a downstroke. sometimes (depending on the architecture of the line ) you start a phrase/arpeggio with an upstroke. But also free strokes depending on the effect you want ( softer sound for example because rest stroking makes the picking very harsh sometimes for certain musical passages, and in situations were is impossible to do rest stroke picking ).

3º - In slow/medium tempos you use the wrist to play, on higer tempos you use the arm. That's were the speed comes.

Left Hand:

1º - The left hand covers a 5 fret span, and not 4 as usually done. Obviously you use a 4 fingers in 4 frets if you are doing a chromatic line, it's not strict. the 5 fret span is used to accommodate things to make sweeping easier with the rest stroke picking and the "horizontal" way that benson plays.

so so helpful - thank you very much indeed!

can i ask a couple of questions?

- every string change is a downstroke!! - this reminds me of the claim that triplet phrases are always ascending (i use descending triplet phrases a lot - and they require string changes with upstrokes). but i would have to work very hard to eliminate upstroke string changes - especially from descending lines.

- rest strokes only on downstrokes - so, again, no descending triplets?

- the pad of the pinky not the side... - when i looked up adam rogers - e.g. the youtube clip of him doing a solo improv. on long ago and far away - it seemed that - like me - he was precisely resting the side of his pinky against the pick guard. should i try to re-oriantate my hand to make it the pad of the pinky not the side? is this really important?

fascinating point about using wrist for medium/slow phrasing and arm for faster phrases - on its own this point could stop me from going insane!!!!

did i say thank you!!

[Groyniad]

2 more questions!

the issue about how tightly to grip the pick is HUGE - v. v. interesting that you stress that its held lightly - that goes against a great deal of what i've been doing

it connects to the difference between flex and 'flip-flopping' - you only get flex if you clamp the pick quite tightly - and this rules out flip-flopping. i wonder if there's a difference between what you're getting from peter f. and what jc is doing...

and - when strumming - does the pinky stay anchored (most of the time at least)?

THANKS nonocpinto and jc (and peter f.)

[nunocpinto]

can i ask a couple of questions?

Sure Groyniad

- every string change is a downstroke!! - this reminds me of the claim that triplet phrases are always ascending (i use descending triplet phrases a lot - and they require string changes with upstrokes). but i would have to work very hard to eliminate upstroke string changes - especially from descending lines.

- rest strokes only on downstrokes - so, again, no descending triplets?

Most of the time Benson plays everything by that rule. Is triplets are indeed mainly ascending and chromatics descending. But not always, i have seen him on video reverse the picking and do descending triplets.

- the pad of the pinky not the side... - when i looked up Adam Rogers - e.g. the YouTube clip of him doing a solo improv. on long ago and far away - it seemed that - like me - he was precisely resting the side of his pinky against the pick guard. should i try to re-oriantate my hand to make it the pad of the pinky not the side? is this really important?

I know what you mean, i have seen Adam do both; side and the pad of the pinky. Well it's up to you obviously. I have been on the last few weeks adapting to use the pad. For me it´s much more stable and i feel less restricted than with the two fingers on the pickguard. More control over the 6 strings and the ability to jump around. Peter plays like this. If you analise closely the next video you can see much of the things i explained on the other post. But i guess the main point is. Your anchoring as to be rock solid.



fascinating point about using wrist for medium/slow phrasing and arm for faster phrases - on its own this point could stop me from going insane!!!!

This is very important. Check the video and see the places were we uses the arm or wrist.

the issue about how tightly to grip the pick is HUGE - v. v. interesting that you stress that its held lightly - that goes against a great deal of what I've been doing.

it connects to the difference between flex and 'flip-flopping' - you only get flex if you clamp the pick quite tightly - and this rules out flip-flopping. i wonder if there's a difference between what you're getting from peter f. and what jc is doing...

Yes, there are substantial differences about JC approach and Peter´s. JC doesn't use rest stroke picking. But i guess he can respond better to that question himself?.

Regarding the flip-flop: yes it's very important to grip very lightly, the pick moves slightly up and down between the pads of the index and thumb. the video below with Perry Hughes is a good example were you can see a lot of that happening.

and - when strumming - does the pinky stay anchored (most of the time at least)?

Correct, the pinky stays anchored, only if you need to make a large strumming across all 6 string you might lift the anchoring.

[ecj]

can i ask a couple of questions?

Sure Groyniad

- every string change is a downstroke!! - this reminds me of the claim that triplet phrases are always ascending (i use descending triplet phrases a lot - and they require string changes with upstrokes). but i would have to work very hard to eliminate upstroke string changes - especially from descending lines.

- rest strokes only on downstrokes - so, again, no descending triplets?

Most of the time Benson plays everything by that rule. Is triplets are indeed mainly ascending and chromatics descending. But not always, i have seen him on video reverse the picking and do descending triplets.

Glad we finally got some answers on this. So cool that you're taking lessons with Farrell.

[Groyniad]

thanks again nunocpinto

this is really helping - the combination of firm anchoring and a light grip on the pick is very promising indeed

[Philco]

can i ask a couple of questions?

Sure Groyniad

- every string change is a downstroke!! - this reminds me of the claim that triplet phrases are always ascending (i use descending triplet phrases a lot - and they require string changes with upstrokes). but i would have to work very hard to eliminate upstroke string changes - especially from descending lines.

- rest strokes only on downstrokes - so, again, no descending triplets?

Most of the time Benson plays everything by that rule. Is triplets are indeed mainly ascending and chromatics descending. But not always, i have seen him on video reverse the picking and do descending triplets.

- the pad of the pinky not the side... - when i looked up Adam Rogers - e.g. the YouTube clip of him doing a solo improv. on long ago and far away - it seemed that - like me - he was precisely resting the side of his pinky against the pick guard. should i try to re-oriantate my hand to make it the pad of the pinky not the side? is this really important?

I know what you mean, i have seen Adam do both; side and the pad of the pinky. Well it's up to you obviously. I have been on the last few weeks adapting to use the pad. For me it´s much more stable and i feel less restricted than with the two fingers on the pickguard. More control over the 6 strings and the ability to jump around. Peter plays like this. If you analise closely the next video you can see much of the things i explained on the other post. But i guess the main point is. Your anchoring as to be rock solid.



fascinating point about using wrist for medium/slow phrasing and arm for faster phrases - on its own this point could stop me from going insane!!!!

This is very important. Check the video and see the places were we uses the arm or wrist.

the issue about how tightly to grip the pick is HUGE - v. v. interesting that you stress that its held lightly - that goes against a great deal of what I've been doing.

it connects to the difference between flex and 'flip-flopping' - you only get flex if you clamp the pick quite tightly - and this rules out flip-flopping. i wonder if there's a difference between what you're getting from peter f. and what jc is doing...

Yes, there are substantial differences about JC approach and Peter´s. JC doesn't use rest stroke picking. But i guess he can respond better to that question himself?.

Regarding the flip-flop: yes it's very important to grip very lightly, the pick moves slightly up and down between the pads of the index and thumb. the video below with Perry Hughes is a good example were you can see a lot of that happening.

and - when strumming - does the pinky stay anchored (most of the time at least)?

Correct, the pinky stays anchored, only if you need to make a large strumming across all 6 string you might lift the anchoring.

A little off topic......that Perry vid is one of my favorites. Does anyone know what tune he is playing?
Thanks!

[MarkRhodes]

You're welcome-Just understand that if you give it at least 15 minutes focused attention daily, then the more everything consolidates, and becomes further refined. Paying attention to the tiny details is where the key lies at the top end of performance.You then get to chose the level of control and sound you are aiming for without having to worry about the challenges of the right hand giving you lip-so to speak.

All the best.
JC Stylles

About the thumb at the top / back of the pick. I'm a big guy (5'11", north of 200 pounds) and have a big thumb.

So:
1) If I have as a pressure point (where thumb meets pick) the top right edge of my thumb, then the rest of my thumb easily covers half of the pick.

2) If I slide the pick out some (-to have the "healthy third" showing) then the pressure point is more at the center / top of my thumb. (Way back when, I wouldn't have been able to hold the pick that way; it would have squirted out. Now it stays, no problem.) Lot more flex that way. Do you foresee any problems with that change?

[destinytot]

Does anyone know what tune he is playing?

I doubt whether he has a tune in mind. I think he's playing some generic I and IV cadences in F, with some semi-tone shifts (nice surprise one to E at the end). Fabulous playing, really inspiring.

I've got most of the changes written out for next week's Soul set, and I'm really going to enjoy it. (Hurray for Barry Harris; I was delighted - but not surprised - to learn that James Jamerson studied with him.)

[Groyniad]

i've realized - thanks to nunocpinto - that my main problem with nailing the GB method has been the amount of 'force' i'm putting into my picking. i've been so fixed on pulling a nice fat big round assertive sound out of the guitar that i've been playing much too hard - gripping or clamping the pick too tight - pushing and pulling through the strings too forcefully - playing too loud (without amplification that is).

i grew up playing the flute - and the whole deal with that was getting a big big sound out it (james galway is the master of masters here). with these instruments amplification is just not involved - or not essentially involved anyway.

but i've just never adapted myself - in 25 years - to playing an instrument that is essentially amplified. the point of this is that the volume does not come from you much at all - but from the amp - you have to allow the amp to do that work for you - and until now - i've never been able to do that properly. the question of how loudly you are playing has no answer for us until the facts about amplification are settled - so you could be picking super gently and making an enormous sound or picking super hard and making a very quiet one.

that is a total head-frock for me. i guess for guys and gals who've grown up with 'electric' or amplified guitars it is second nature. but for me it is not. i can't help trying to get a full big sound out of the guitar all by myself - and this has been making it impossible for me to acquire the facility i'm after.

in the last days - thanks again to nunocpinto - i've really been learning how to get this right and the results are great. i'm getting a very different acoustic sound out of the archtop - a lot smaller/quieter - but very pleasing - and the super light touch is making playing fast phrases a genuine possibility.

[3625]

i've realized - thanks to nunocpinto - that my main problem with nailing the GB method has been the amount of 'force' i'm putting into my picking. i've been so fixed on pulling a nice fat big round assertive sound out of the guitar that i've been playing much too hard - gripping or clamping the pick too tight - pushing and pulling through the strings too forcefully - playing too loud (without amplification that is).

In terms of gripping the pick hard, I initially took JC's description of activating the 1st DI muscle to mean that you were supposed to have a strong grip on the pick. He once clarified by email that you should only use just enough force to press the tip of the thumb into the pick - but only just enough to require making the grip. Over the last year I'm realising that it can be hardly any pressure at all once you're warmed up properly and everything settles in. I think ECJ found the same thing and has been working on using a less tense grip - maybe he can chime in on this as well.

I really dig Peter Farrell's playing/chops and will probably get a Skype lesson sometime in the future - it should be interesting to compare his approach with JC's. Basically in essence the same technique, but with subtle differences here and there methinks. Same goes for all these guys: Dan Wilson, Rodney Jones, Perry Hughes, Adam Rogers... to me they all differ from GB in certain ways but share more things in common than are different.

There's one key issue that hasn't really been covered in depth in this thread: HYPERMOBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is, people whose thumbs can bend backwards easily. There's lots of players who naturally seem to do a GB style picking technique in terms of the 'reverse' angle - not just jazz guitarists, but funk players like Nile Rodgers etc. When you do a downstroke with reverse angle picking it exerts a backwards force on the thumb - so if you're born with a thumb that flexes easily backwards like Dan Wilson then this style of picking would be very natural. Guys like me and ECJ have thumbs that don't naturally extend backwards, therefore need to adopt a hand position/technique that accounts for this. JC's approach works well in this regard.

I think guys whose thumb naturally backbends tend to have a really hip snappy, funky attack to their notes. Reg is a classic example of this - his thumb is totally hypermobile from what I can see on his vids.

Hypermobility exists on a spectrum:



I've been checking out the thumbs of people I know and making them hold guitar picks while I figure it out! The amount of backbend really does vary from person to person like in the above photo.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I've been trying out this technique for a while now, but it only just recently made sense.

See, I tend to play with the thickest picks I can find. At the moment I've got a packet of Dunlop Big Stubbies- the 3.0 mm ones. And while I can sort of see the benefit this technique has while using that pick, it just doesn't click right.

I saw that people were talking about how important the pick flex is for the technique, so I grabbed something off of my computer desk that was about as thin as a Fender medium and had a decent level of flex- which happened to be a playing card.

Holding it in the Benson style grip, or at least my understanding of it, and then using the corner to pick the nylon string guitar I play most of my stuff at home on, it really clicked. The flex makes the technique so much more useable and sensible.

[ecj]

3625 - Yes on both accounts. My thumb looks like the 2nd pic down. No bend. Zero. Still works, but I have to bend my wrist more than JC or Benson because of it, I think.

And I'm definitely working on a more relaxed grip. That's been a huge priority after I recorded myself and realized that I way overplay the guitar. Trying to bring the dynamics down to a more controlled range, and a lighter grip is the key.

Yes!

[destinytot]

I've just been told that mine's like thumb #4.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=3625;514880]
There's one key issue that hasn't really been covered in depth in this thread: HYPERMOBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QUOTE]

Great point, and thanks for all the pictures.
I do have the 'banana thumb.' It makes it difficult to press with the upper-right tip of the thumb against the pick. (On the other hand, it's easy to keep it in place. That is, it never moves or gets tired of holding that position.) I can place it where I want but it's harder to adjust things so that that is where the pressure is coming from. For me, the thumb is locked and steady and the pressure is really from the index finger pressing back against the thumb!

[MarkRhodes]

My thumb is closer to # 9. ("Number 9, number 9, number 9...."

My first thought was that it was like # 4, but there's much more of a wrinkle on the top of the knuckle.