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Really nice playing myles. Do you have any clips of you using standard grip that would show the comparison of why you're not happy with the Benson technique? Your feel sounds great to me.
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08-03-2014 06:51 PM
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Myles that's exactly the economy of movement I'm going on about.
You're playing great.
No doubt you've tried moving your hand more toward the front pup. Did that not improve the tone for you?
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I don't have a problem muting anymore. Amazing how the body compensates.
I started to do some muting with my fingers on the left hand because it seemed natural to do it.
Also it's easy to move over the bridge and do the palm mute thing.
Never hear GB with ringing strings.
Hard to explain this technique.
You have to do to know.
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I agree that I've heard Adam Rogers play with a clean tone on a 335 with roundwounds and heard strings ringing - though to clarify, I think the guy plays like a mofo. Thing is, if like Benson you play an archtop with flats, the natural tendency of those instruments is to have no sustain. It's a totally dead thunk. My Painter archtop is fantastic, but it's completely useless for playing anything other than straight ahead - the notes die almost immediately. I love it for that.
I did my first gig the other day with GB picking and was anxious to see if the low strings would ring out or start feeding back. To my relief everything was fine. I've been recording direct during the last week, and also I don't notice any errant strings/notes. Now if I was playing a solid body with rounds - no dice. This Benson picking is really about playing an archtop with flats - works great for that.
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Originally Posted by 3625
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Ha! - oh well I'm happy to be wrong about that. lol
As an aside, I'm being given a left handed strat copy by a friend who's clearing out his garage. I noticed when playing it right handed with GB picking that the volume pot wasn't there to get in my way (cause the controls are all up top). Now because of Myles and Alain I've got no excuse...
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I always find the string ring complaint kind of funny because...Hendrix. If you want to sound like Steve Vai, I guess I could see this being a problem, but is there any better rock guitarist than Hendrix? I never seem to complain about open strings when listening to Are You Experienced. The Benson position seemed to work well for him.
Never had any issues with feedback with this tech. If anything, I get less because I tend to turn down more to "thin out" the sound as myles said. To me, that's kind of a feature, not a bug. I'm trying to move away from the Jim Hall tone and get a more acoustic sound. When Benson is really dialed in to me his guitar almost sounds like an acoustic instrument, which is why I like the way it fits in with a jazz combo so much. The Hall/Metheny sound can be a little much, and I really don't like the super chorused out electric tone of a lot of the new great players (Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, etc.).
Myles - you might want to check out what JC Stylles is doing. He has a much thicker, more traditional tone than Benson. I think two factors are: (1) your pick is closer to 45 degrees than 90 degrees to the string. You might feel the tone thicken up if you turn the pick more onto the edge. If you consider that Pat Metheny also uses the reverse grip (although not the Benson hand position), there's got to be a way to get the tone you're looking for. I think Metheny uses thin picks and 0.11s. And (2) you might want to choke up more on it. The less pick is showing, the thicker my tone gets. When you grip up towards the top you get the Benson flex thing and that acoustic snap that has been variously described as "thunk".
Just some thoughts. As Benson said re: tone, feel, and speed, you can't have it all. Unless you're Pat Martino.
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08-04-2014, 09:34 AM #533destinytot Guest
There's a prety good view of each guitarist's right hand in these two live clips.
From Spain, Telmo Fernández (who's studied with JC Stylles):
And from France, Amaury Filliard:
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Originally Posted by Philco
I don't know how the idea got started that no one who plays this way can mute. Like you say, "amazing how the body compensates." I think it can be handled a few different ways, depending on one's preferences and hand position.. Let's not forget, not everyone who plays with a standard grip does it exactly the same way. We're not robots...)
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Originally Posted by Richb
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There's a new thread up called "Zappa on Mike Douglas" posted by srlank. (Mike Douglas hosted an afternoon talk show in, I believe, Philadelphia back in the '70s.)
It was a treat to see Frank as a guest but for our obsessive purposes, the place to go is to the 6:29 mark, where Frank is performing and you can see his right hand clearly. Looks like Benson picking. If you go back a few seconds, you will see him tapping (-which I did not know he did), so when he starts around 6:29 with the pick, he is also repositioning it after the tapping bit. Interesting....
(In the still photo you see for the video, Frank is tapping. That's just before he goes back to picking in Something Live a Benson manner. The pick is clearly on the index-pad side of the finger and his thumb if more-or-less locked.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSPdg4yPwAg#t=408
Last edited by MarkRhodes; 08-04-2014 at 10:30 AM.
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I think we're getting pretty broad in the definition.
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Originally Posted by Richb
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08-04-2014, 11:44 AM #539destinytot Guest
One could do a lot worse than sound like a walking conflation of Wes Montgomery and George Benson.
Monsieur Amaury Filliard wears that distinction as a badge of honour.
"Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend,
Before we too into the Dust descend;
Dust into Dust, and under Dust to lie
Sans Wine, sans Song, sans Singer, and--sans End!" (Omar Khayyam)
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Originally Posted by Richb
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by djangoles
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I gotta admit, I thought what I did was standard...I was told from my first lesson at age 12 to angle the pick back!
can you guys post some videos of jazz players using what you'd call "quintessential standard grip?"
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Originally Posted by Richb
This isn't a problem for George Benson or JC Stylles or Henry Johnson or Adam Rogers. It isn't a problem for Philco or Mark Cally (setemupjoe) or Evan (ecg).
I will stipulate that it is a big problem for you and I wish you best of luck in addressing it.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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So that's considered standard, holding the pick between the pad of the thumb and the side of the index finger?
very interesting. I know a lot of beginner books show that, but I didn't think anybody actually did it
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I can think of quite a few guys who dominate the instrument using that position: Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, Eddie Lang, Billy Bean, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin...
Those are just the guys I can think of off of the top of my head. There are a lot.
Here's hoping we can skip the next 5 pages of thread where Rich accuses everyone who uses Benson picking of being boring clones that can't mute, refuses to post any clips demonstrating his ability to pick on the instrument, and eventually admits to being a "nobody" before disappearing from the forum for another 3 weeks.
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08-04-2014, 01:35 PM #548destinytot Guest
I don't know about a "quintessential standard grip", but I'd say these guys' grips each contrast quite starkly with George Benson's (except perhaps the overhang visible during Bucky's solo at 0.25 speed).
Last edited by destinytot; 08-04-2014 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typo correction
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
And I saw the same thing in rock guitar books as a kid. I also came across a few Stern Warnings against holding the pick between the pad of the index and the thumb.
Apparently, many beginners tend to do that. But just as apparently, some teachers thought that was a bad habit that should be corrected.
I tried to do it the 'right' way, as I understood it, which wound up being with the pick along the top edge of the index. That's how I held a Jazz III. Sometimes the pick would wind up back between the index pad and my thumb, and sometimes it would wind up being angled backwards. If I knew then what I know now.....
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Originally Posted by ecj
"It seems to me I've heard that song before
It's from an old familiar score
I know it well, that melody..." (Styne / Cahn)
Lesson #91: Days Of Wine And Roses as played by...
Today, 06:41 AM in The Songs