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I know not a guitar player but still...
I know this is a loaded question. I know there are so many facets and ideas to explore...but I am kind of curious if there is any partcular source to break down some of his favorite tricks, and how a guitar could do them. Particularly some of the lightning type shapes that sound like some of the notes may be unisons... and I have read a bit about the whole matrix thing..and I kind of get the concept...well, a little bit, but really not sure harmonically how he applies it or not to blowing.
Is he one of the first players to sort of like blend different pentatonic scales and cycle them? I am not sure what I am asking here, but think it can't hurt to get a discussion about Coltrane started.
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06-19-2011 04:40 PM
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My favorite jazz musician. Period. To me, his major contribution to jazz was the "sheets of sound" approach, where instead of outlining chord changes with arpeggios, he would quickly blast through an entire scale, still giving the listener the "impression" of the sound he was going for, but not in quite so definitive a manner. That coupled with his deeply personal and honest approach to his craft (and the fact that the guy just never quit trying to get where he wanted to be musically) make him my favorite.
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You're absolutely right. Any jazz musician who only studies other musicians from his same instrument is going to have a horrifically limited vocabulary. Coltrane's one of my favourites as well. Giant Steps is one of the two albums that made me really want to play jazz and A Love Supreme is one of the two albums that really pushed me to think about the unlimited potential of jazz as an art form. I have no issue with admitting that I am shamelessly infatuated with just about every note he played when he was with Miles.
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What do you guys think of Kenny Garrett? He's my favourite, I think it's strange that not more people mention him.. (although, he has done some cheesy stuff too.. who hasn't..
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coltrane used to practice incessantly with exercise books for the violin. kingcrimson250 is right—looking outside your instrument of choice can lead to new discoveries.
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That's true, lately I've been transfering ideas from drums to guitar!
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I think that, for learning vocabulary for single-note soloing, in a sense there's no reason to even pay any attention to what instrument you are listening to. It's all just vocabulary, melodies.
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I think that this is especially true for us as guitarists, since we can learn another instrument's line without having to worry about range, awkward fingerings, etc which might be issues in transferring from one wind instrument to another.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
In an attempt to make my playing more melodic, I actually used to sit down and learn the vocal parts and play those on guitar. My reasoning was that the more I ingrained that sort of thing into my playing, the more it would influence my improvisation.
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Apparently Mr. Frisell was really into lifting from (jazz) vocalists.
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I haven't transcribed much "SHeets of Sound" era trane--it's just over my head...er...ear...still.
I have looked a lot at later Coltrane, and I really love the way he'll work a small "note set." I heard somebody say (maybe even in liner notes? Or in a book? Can't remember) how John would take maybe, three notes, and if you thought of them as spelling "CAT" he's work it and spell CAT, TAC, ATC, CTA, and repeat notes, TTA, TCT, CAC, etc...I always thought it was really cool to hear a guy who had such tremendous facility on the instrument be patient enough to work such a small idea...
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Three notes can be a very powerful tool if implemented to it's full potential. The search for knowledge demands the full exploration, scientifically, artistically and internally of all possibilities. Hard work and a ton of love and devotion will always shine through in the end.
I loved all of Tranes stuff with Miles. A good friend of mine who plays keys is a Trane nut. He was telling me he came across some show's that Trane did with Miles band around 64-65, sans Miles. He said he had never heard these particular versions before. He said they were out of sight. My Favorite Things, was one of the tunes covered, (of course), he said John's solo's were incredible. He is copying the Dvd and sending it to me.
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Jeff that was supposedly his method for getting through Giant Steps at such a fast tempo (with no precedence of anybody else soloing over that harmony.)
His solos on GS and Countdown and other tunes have a small number of cells over each chord type.
Obviously the 1235 (for both major sevenths and dominants) was huge. It could of course be permuted - 5321, 1325, 1523, 1352, etc, but when I've looked at transcriptions I don't see that many permutations, but some consistent cells for sure.
Also worth mentioning about Coltrane...he had several distinctly different periods and, while he always sounded like himself, he definitely was using different methods and approaches at these different times.
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I'll have to try that on "steps."
Currently, I've been having lots of fun breaking that song down into tension and resolution...I play almost freely over tension, and resolve as clean as I can...I'm not there yet, but I'm getting somewhere with it...
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yeah when you check out his original solo, the vocabulary is actually quite limited and simple - just very solid little motifs that clearly spell each chord.
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And extremely effective, too. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Coltrane to me is one of those "gateway" artists, like Beethoven was for me in classical. Before I studied music theory at the uni, I didn't much care for Beethoven, simply because I thought it was too dissonant. I thought Bach was the end-all-be-all, because it was so "perfect" and "contained." After a few semesters of music theory and ear training, though, I started understanding what it was that Beethoven was doing harmonically, and my ears opened...it turns out it wasn't the music but my inability to "get it" that was the issue with me enjoying it.
Same thing with Trane, when I first heard "A Love Supreme" (which was the very 1st Coltrane album I bought, knowing nothing about him at the time or what he sounded like), I said to myself "Man...that's a whole lot of noise." Ffwd a couple of years, this time studying jazz theory, listening to tons of jazz CDs, playing jazz all the time - I think I "get it" now! One of my favorite albums.
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Is jzucker still around to explain the "sheets?". He seems like the best guitarist on the topic. I dig Trane, but cannot shred out lines on the guitar in his style. I'll stick to Miles... lol
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As far as the technique goes, I've always thought a combination of legato, sweeping, and tapping would get you the closest you'll get to that sound on a guitar. There's this one part of his solo on "My Favorite Things" on the original album that sounds like it could be done with tapping; as for those arpeggios, I've seen "shredders" pull off things similar to that combining sweeps, legato, and tapping. I'd like to hear about the "sheets of sound for guitar" as well though. Originally Posted by JonnyPac
Anyway, along with Eric Dolphy and John McLaughlin, Coltrane's my favorite musician. Got into his music through Blue Train, and have never looked back. The Complete Village Vanguard Recordings are really something special, anything with Coltrane and Dolphy together is worth seeking out.Last edited by Extrapolation; 07-06-2011 at 11:52 PM.
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My first Trane recording was 'First Meditations' I still love that record best, maybe because of Tyner, but I feel a great record all the way around. A friend loaned me 'Africa Brass' 30 years ago.I told him he was never getting the record back.
My favorite rendition of anything close to Giant Steps is 'Do You Hear the Voices That You Left Behind' by John McLaughlin. His dedication to Trane got me into Trane.
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Lewis Porter's book is a great reference for anyone trying to understand Coltrane more both biographically and musically. He is a pianist and saxophonist and he did a great job investigating Coltrane's world. One of the few books that blends bio and musical examples well.
Amazon.com: John Coltrane: His Life and Music (The Michigan American Music Series) (9780472086436): Lewis Porter: Books
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Holdsworth I think is the only guitarist to really capture that consistently. A lot of great players have gotten very very close to the point of it splitting hairs but Holdsworth, he's Coltrane on the guitar I think.
Trane is a huge influence, and for me personally I probably wouldn't be playing if it wasn't for his work. I don't try and capture that sheets of sound thing, I leave that for more technique minded players. But his vocabulary and more over his passion really came through for me. When I heard the 2nd movement of Love Supreme it completely blew me wide open, I had no idea that was possible to do, to play with that much strength and purpose. I still listen to that album today and get the same sense of awe when I hear it from the drop of the arm till it's over.
I love Kenny Garret too, I saw him a year ago and it was a fun and hip concert. It was not his straight ahead group but it didn't matter. He's great.
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still don't get trane ........
there must be something there ,cos so many of you guys I respect
dig him so much ........maybe one day
I way prefer canonball in that classic Miles quintet
though I believe Canon was very impressed by John's playing
so there's another one !
obviously he's technically a sublimely gifted player
Maybe he's not bluesey enough for me
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I wouldn't pick Coltrane as my go-to guy for bebop. I agree that Cannonball is probably a better choice, for that genre at least. But when it comes to melancholy modal tunes, I don't think Coltrane can be beat. My favorite tunes are ones like "My Favorite Things," where he goes back and forth between major and minor; a bunch of tunes he does in a pedal Cm that just kill me, like "Lonnies' Lament"; "Alabama"; and originals like "Equinox." The way he builds intensity in his solos is incredible.
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Trane could do it all superbly. Bebop, blues, ballads, modal, free. Has anyone been a more influential improviser since him? I think not.
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Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
+1 and a box of cracker jacks!!!
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the sheets of sound approach just means playing relentless sequences of arpeggios and scalar licks at high speeds, usually with wider intervals and incorporating the whole register. someone mentioned holdsworth before, he fits the description perfectly and its no coincidence that he modeled his whole approach on horn playing and was a huge fan of trane. shawn lane is another guy who fits the bill, he was even mad enough to try pick everything instead of using legato
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