Wes Montgomery held his guitar differently

**caravan** · 03-09-2011, 09:38 PM

Did you ever notice how Wes would hold his guitar? In these (blurry) pics you can see that he actually rested the larger portion of the lower bout on his right leg, which tends to cause the whole instrument to be up higher.

The guitar also seems to be tilted back so that he could look down upon the face of it.

**Stackabones** · 03-09-2011, 10:46 PM

Check out Freddie Green, too.

**docbop** · 03-09-2011, 11:17 PM

Have you ever played a 17" or 18" archtop that's the way you need to do it. It also make seeing the fretboard easy.

**hot ford coupe** · 03-09-2011, 11:32 PM

That's the way I hold mine with the neck a slight bit higher. The way I play, it keeps my wrist nice and straight so I never have any problems with it. Notice both Wes and Freddie leave the back of the guitar completely free. It makes a big big difference in the acoustic tone and volume of the guitar. That's why Freddie gets that deep pulse out of his guitar. If I hold my guitar against my gut, the tone is thin and the volume goes down (probably the feedback potential goes down too). If I free up the back, I get that nice 30's sound.

**caravan** · 03-09-2011, 11:43 PM

Charlie Christian once said that he held it that way because he didn't want anything to restrict the sides or back of the guitar from vibrating.

Perhaps you've heard of Japanese guitarist Yoshiaki Miyanoue? He plays in a similar fashion as Wes did (I'm not saying he's better, but he's very good). He holds his guitar (not a Gibson) like I do... with the waist contour resting comfortably on his leg.

If you love Wes Montgomery you should check Yoshiaki Miyanoue on youtube.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-10-2011, 08:49 AM

Charlie Christian held his guitar the same way a lot of blues (acoustic) guitarists did. It helps with the volume. Some say it helps with the picking because of the angle it creates but I'm not sure I know what this means.
I don't know that Wes ever played acoustic guitar. Anyone?

They all three liked to sit down and play, though.

**fordfanjpn** · 03-10-2011, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by caravan

Perhaps you've heard of Japanese guitarist Yoshiaki Miyanoue? He plays in a similar fashion as Wes did (I'm not saying he's better, but he's very good). He holds his guitar (not a Gibson) like I do... with the waist contour resting comfortably on his leg.

If you love Wes Montgomery you should check Yoshiaki Miyanoue on youtube.

Miyanoue-san is my neighbor (one train station away) and runs a jazz jam session near here once a week. I've seen him play several times, but I don't have the nerve or the chops to attend his jam sessions. He certainly is a great player, and a nice guy too.

Bill

**passfan** · 03-10-2011, 06:21 PM

Interesting.I'm right handed but play sitting down with the guitar on my left knee.I know classical guitarists mostly do this but do any jazz players?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-10-2011, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by passfan

Interesting.I'm right handed but play sitting down with the guitar on my left knee.I know classical guitarists mostly do this but do any jazz players?

Do you have a bag-ass archtop? I find archtops too big to do that.

**max_power** · 03-10-2011, 06:33 PM

T-bone walker held his guitar similarly, except standing up.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-10-2011, 07:03 PM

I'm glad you mentioned T-Bone Walker. I thought of him later today. He did hold the guitar "lap" style, though I never knew why. He played electrics with amps, so volume wasn't the issue. He knew Charlie Christian but he didn't pick up *that* from him.

**fumblefingers** · 03-10-2011, 11:25 PM

i play big archtops. lots of people do. there is no need to tilt it back like that. its awkward for the left arm and wrist too.

these guys did just fine and did whatever they wanted. but that doesn't mean that you should emulate them in this particular regard.

they were self-taught/untrained.

**fumblefingers** · 03-10-2011, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Do you have a bag-ass archtop? I find archtops too big to do that.

i sit in the classical position with mine. no problem, very comfortable.

am curious - how does the size bother you?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-11-2011, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

i sit in the classical position with mine. no problem, very comfortable.

am curious - how does the size bother you?

If I rest the guitar on my left leg, in the classical style, I end up spreading my legs too much. I'd rather sit with legs crossed (left over right).

**monk** · 03-11-2011, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

That's the way I hold mine with the neck a slight bit higher. The way I play, it keeps my wrist nice and straight so I never have any problems with it. Notice both Wes and Freddie leave the back of the guitar completely free. It makes a big big difference in the acoustic tone and volume of the guitar. That's why Freddie gets that deep pulse out of his guitar. If I hold my guitar against my gut, the tone is thin and the volume goes down (probably the feedback potential goes down too). If I free up the back, I get that nice 30's sound.

+1

**almonds5** · 03-13-2011, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by monk

+1

Wow, I just tried this out... I can't believe the difference in tone it makes! the notes sound much fatter and alive (on my Ibanez semi-hollow).

**Aristotle** · 03-13-2011, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by almonds5

Wow, I just tried this out... I can't believe the difference in tone it makes! the notes sound much fatter and alive (on my Ibanez semi-hollow).

Old-timers actually knew stuff?

**almonds5** · 03-13-2011, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Old-timers actually knew stuff?

haha, I didn't mean to be condescending or anything. I respect Charlie Christian, Wes, etc. So much as artists.

**Aristotle** · 03-13-2011, 01:04 PM

Almonds,
My sarcasm was not directed at you. It's just a general impression one might get from the forum that the known world of jazz began with Bert Ligon and Mark Levine.

**tuxtux** · 03-26-2011, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by caravan

Charlie Christian once said that he held it that way because he didn't want anything to restrict the sides or back of the guitar from vibrating.

Perhaps you've heard of Japanese guitarist Yoshiaki Miyanoue? He plays in a similar fashion as Wes did (I'm not saying he's better, but he's very good). He holds his guitar (not a Gibson) like I do... with the waist contour resting comfortably on his leg.

If you love Wes Montgomery you should check Yoshiaki Miyanoue on youtube.

nice player, Yoshiaki Miyanoue
regards
tux

**daveg** · 04-04-2011, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I don't know that Wes ever played acoustic guitar. Anyone?

Wes never RECORDED on acoustic.

Even in the late forties Hampton made the unusual concession of allowing Wes to play through an amp.

DG

**MarkRhodes** · 04-04-2011, 10:16 AM

Another theory about tilting the guitar is that it makes it easier to play. Joseph Weidlich mentions this in his book "The Guitar Chord Shapes of Charlie Christian." Supposedly there is "less friction in releasing the strings due to the change in angle." (Page 90) (I'm not sure I understand what this *means* much less whether it is true.)

**monk** · 04-05-2011, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by markerhodes

Another theory about tilting the guitar is that it makes it easier to play. Joseph Weidlich mentions this in his book "The Guitar Chord Shapes of Charlie Christian." Supposedly there is "less friction in releasing the strings due to the change in angle." (Page 90) (I'm not sure I understand what this *means* much less whether it is true.)

Early acoustic players tilted the guitar so that the back of the instrument could vibrate in concert with the top thus producing the maximum amount of volume and projection. Same as a violin. If you hold the guitar against the torso it will mute it.

Players who switched the electric guitar continued to hold the guitar in the same manner for the same reason.

Weidlich's assertions that Charlie Christian was a country blues player based on photographs of CC holding the guitar are incorrect. Biographical information gathered from Christian's contemporaries and family contradict Weidlich's claims. To fabricate Christian's history based on nothing more than looking at a few photographs and drawing conclusions is extremely poor scholarship.

Joseph Weidlich's background is in classical guitar and old time banjo. His poor background research coupled with the fact that the CD examples are MIDI files rather than him actually playing makes the entire book suspect IMO.

Wolf Marshall and Stan Ayeroff have written much better books on CC.

**MarkRhodes** · 04-05-2011, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by monk

Weidlich's assertions that Charlie Christian was a country blues player based on photographs of CC holding the guitar are incorrect. Biographical information gathered from Christian's contemporaries and family contradict Weidlich's claims.

This doesn't follow. Weidlich claims that Christian held his guitar the way country blues players did, which the photo evidence supports. It is not simply a matter of tilting the guitar, either. Charlie's thumb is over the neck in all the shots I've seen of him playing live (-as opposed to posing for publicity shots). I don't think that's an accident. That's how country-blues players held the guitar. That's how Charlie held it. Further, there he used a lot of blues licks in his playing. I don't know what talking to his *family* about these things would settle---unless they're guitar players. Even then, you can hold your guitar *like* a country-blues player even if you didn't grow up as one. (Heck, Charlie didn't even play guitar as a kid, right? Wasn't it his second instrument, taken up as an adult?)

I agree that Weidlich's MIDI files sound awful but that has nothing to do with his claims about Charlie's playing, or the claim in general that the guitar plays easier when tilted.

**monk** · 04-05-2011, 03:52 PM

Weidlich, page 89, third paragraph.
"An often-reproduced photograph of Charlie Christian is one showing him wearing his tuxedo on the bandstand during a break, clearly playing a finger-style blues. The following things can be deduced from that one photo alone (not to mention most of the others taken of him while he is performing) as his playing style is based on traditional country blues techniques:"

Perhaps Weidlich's photograph has sound. But to draw these conclusions from a photograph as well as those that follow on pages 90-92 is ridiculous.

By the way, one of those family members I mentioned was Charlie's older brother Clarence who played with him growing up and survived him by almost 40 years.

CC started playing guitar at age 12 and participated in a family band with his father and brothers.

Regards,
monk