Grant Green - can someone explain his popularity

**BlueMiles** · 10-27-2011, 10:22 AM

I do like Grant Green quite a bit. I've got 5 full CDs by him as a leader, plus I downloaded a "best of" from Blue Note. There are some stray tracks as well, plus sideman appearances, such as Lee Morgan's Search for the New Land (Green adds some cool stuff here).

For me, his very best track is "Talkin' About J.C." That is a pheonomenal trio: Green, Larry Young, Elvin. I think Green does much to represent the "Blue Note sound," but I have to say this is a trio that sounded like no other from that period. I am not one to talk about technique, but the burning drive of this tune is sensational.

**JoeHeider** · 10-27-2011, 02:55 PM

I'm all about the Grant Record "Solid" in my opinion his tone is the best i've ever heard from any of his stuff on that album. John Abercrombie turned me on to it. The Title Track is killing, I learned that solo the day I got the record.

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by monk

Perhaps a bit of historical perspective is in order.

Due to his commercial success with A&M Records and Top 40 radio airplay for Windy, Wes had a very high media profile in the mid-to-late 60s. He was all over TV (The Tonight Show, Merv Griffin Show, Mike Douglas Show, Hollywood Palace).

Unlike many jazz guitarists who preceded and followed him, Wes had sufficient TV & radio exposure to the extent that John & Jane Doe actually knew who he was and knew the regard in which he was held. In addition, guitarists of all genres were talking about him . Wes Montgomery became the single best known jazz guitarist of all time.

It also needs to be understood that while rock was in its ascendency at this time, the major singers of the 40s & and 50s were still a force to be reckoned with on Top 40 radio and they routinely used jazz guitarists on their recordings. Also, these singers had much higher television profiles than the rock acts.

Coupled with the fact that nearly all the aforementioned talk shows had orchestras that employed "name" jazz guitarists; the sound of jazz guitar had not yet faded in the consciousness of the general public. In the midst of all this stood Wes Montgomery overshadowing everyone including Grant Green.

Looking back at articles & interviews in music magazines from that time, GG was considered to be a workman-like guitarist in the Christian tradition. In spite of all the work he did at Blue Note, he was considered to be just one of the guys but not special in the way that Lang, Reinhardt, Christian & Montgomery were.

Even in death, Wes overshadowed Green. Careful reading of interviews with Green will reveal a subtext of frustration at being overlooked in favor of not only Montgomery but young upstart George Benson as well.
Life was not kind to Grant Green. He spent most of it futilely trying to achieve the acclaim and financial success that Wes enjoyed. The ensuing years since his death have seen Green's stock rise considerably and he has received some of the attention that eluded him in life. Nonetheless, he will always suffer in comparison to Montgomery.

Respectfully,
monk

Yeah but even with all that popularity he wasn't even mentioned once in Ken Burns documentary!

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**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

So, gun to head, who do you prefer to listen to, Wes or GG? Just wonderin'....

Wes

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**destinytot** · 09-01-2017, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Wes

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Suddenly, it's GG.

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 04:55 PM

Why cause everyone else is picking Wes? Trying to be different?

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**destinytot** · 09-01-2017, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Why cause everyone else is picking Wes? Trying to be different?

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Not at all. I've spent a fortune over the years on Wes albums - vinyl and CD - but I haven't paid enough attention to GG.

What's just clicked for me - and as djg explained in the 'vs' thread - is how GG interacts. I need some of that mojo.

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Not at all. I've spent a fortune over the years on Wes albums - vinyl and CD - but I haven't paid enough attention to GG.

What's just clicked for me - and as dig explained in the 'vs' thread - is how GG interacts. I need some of that mojo.

Ah heh I think I took that the wrong way! It almost sounded like since I picked Wes you changed your mind haha. My bad

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**pingu** · 09-01-2017, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I have this theory that guys who started out on pop/rock pentatonic style playing and have moved onto Jazz find a lot of GG too easy, or reminiscent of their pent noodling days = not impressed! There are few times where you'd be left thinking "Cripes, what is he thinking there?" . With guys like Wes, it's downright confounding as much as it is entertaining. Like a good magic trick, we are in awe of that which we do not fully comprehend.
Just a theory.....

Yeah its a tempting thing to get the mindset of
"I could do that , that's not so good"

That's a bad/wrong mindset on so many levels !
I've been guilty of that sometimes

**FZ2017** · 09-01-2017, 07:14 PM

Has anybody listened to the new Wes Montgomery Smoking in Seattle album with the Wynton Kelly Trio? The first 2 tracks no Wes Montgomery! No guitar whatsoever!

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**Naquat** · 09-01-2017, 07:38 PM

I'm kind of surprised at some of the comments and perhaps I shouldn't be. Some of you are pro Jazz musicians and you sound like kids arguing in high school ! LOL

I look at it this way. There is NO best, there are likes and dislikes. I happen to like listening to Grant Green more than Wes. It doesn't make me right and it doesn't make me wrong. My preference is obviously different than others. No problem on my part. Both were great players both had something to offer the listener. If someone said they hated GG but thought Wes was a Jazz Guitar God...so be it. No skin off my back as everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I don't have a problem with anyone else not liking the artists I like.

For those that like one or the other or someone different I'm sure there are those who could share their favorite recordings of those artists in a positive way.

Enjoy...it doesn't have to be an us or them situation.

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-02-2017, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Yeah but even with all that popularity he wasn't even mentioned once in Ken Burns documentary!

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The Ken Burns documentary was short on the mention of guitar, period. And it was a somewhat revisionist history to be sure.

His main collaborator was Wynton Marsalis, a person who has been vocal in his own disdain for the guitar as a jazz instrument.

**FZ2017** · 09-02-2017, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

The Ken Burns documentary was short on the mention of guitar, period. And it was a somewhat revisionist history to be sure.

His main collaborator was Wynton Marsalis, a person who has been vocal in his own disdain for the guitar as a jazz instrument.

Yeah don't get me started on Wynton Marsalis!

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**FZ2017** · 09-02-2017, 11:05 AM

Still no comments on the new Wes Montgomery Smoking in Seattle album?

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**fasstrack** · 09-02-2017, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Please. I know the guy can groove but I find his playing very limited harmonically and not very imaginative.

I think you had a lot of courage to write this.

I appreciate Grant, but am no huge fan. I listened and dug in my '20s. I like his sound, beat and lyricism---what's not to like? But ultimately, I found that a 'little of him goes a long way'. He IS pretty repetitive, and seems often to be playing different versions of the same solo. A friend of mine, a fine player and Grant devotee, called him the 'recycle king'. Lee Konitz would call his approach to playing 'prepared playing', not true improvising. There's something to be said for having a 'plan', it sort of glues a solo together---but I think he may have over-used this. I feel the same way about Sonny Stitt----sometimes he spat out 8th notes on auto-pilot, b/c he had such a great technique and storehouse of phrases. It's impressive playing, but can sort of get old. I found the late Eddie Diehl to swing just as much as Grant, but a to be a much more interesting soloist. It also sort of bugs me that Grant never seemed to bother much with chords, not even comping. I think know where he was coming from: his 2 favorites seemed to be Charlie Christian and Jimmy Raney---2 single-note masters. But, c'mon, it's a guitar---a mini-orchestra---so why not use the instrument's resources? Just my taste.

To end on a positive note: I have heard Grant play in a fresh way (like on that video w/Barney and Kenny), where he created on the spot and didn't fall back on his licks, and loved it. And, again, his sound, lyricism and swing could really rock the house---and many players can't do that. He was a player with a style you recognize in 2 notes, a beautiful thing. Perhaps that answers the OP's question vis-vis his popularity.

But I do have problems with the other stuff, and am glad to have the forum to speak my piece...

**lawson-stone** · 09-02-2017, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

I think you had a lot of courage to write this.

I appreciate Grant, but am no huge fan. I listened and dug in my '20s. I like his sound, beat and lyricism---what's not to like? But ultimately, I found that a 'little of him goes a long way'. He IS pretty repetitive, and seems often to be playing different versions of the same solo. A friend of mine, a fine player and Grant devotee, called him the 'recycle king'. Lee Konitz would call his approach to playing 'prepared playing', not true improvising. There's something to be said for having a 'plan', it sort of glues a solo together---but I think he may have over-used this. I feel the same way about Sonny Stitt----sometimes he spat out 8th notes on auto-pilot, b/c he had such a great technique and storehouse of phrases. It's impressive playing, but can sort of get old. I found the late Eddie Diehl to swing just as much as Grant, but a much more interesting soloist. It also sort of bugs me that Grant never seemed to bother much with chords, not even comping. I think know where he was coming from: his 2 favorites seemed to be Charlie Christian and Jimmy Raney---2 single-note masters. But, c'mon, it's a guitar---a mini-orchestra---so why not use the instrument's resources? Just my taste.

To end on a positive note: I have heard Grant play in a fresh way (like on that video w/Barney and Kenny), where he created on the spot and didn't fall back on his licks, and loved it. And, again, his sound, lyricism and swing could really rock the house---and many players can't do that. He was a player with a style you recognize in 2 notes, a beautiful thing. Perhaps that answers the OP's question vis-vis his popularity.

But I do have problems with the other stuff, and am glad to have the forum to speak my piece...

I've hesitated to weigh in on the Grant Green discussions. I genuinely enjoy listening to him, when I'm listening to the jazzradio.com "guitar jazz" channel my ears always prick up at his signature tone. So I'm not gonna diss GG.

But, what you've said here really captures why GG remains more on my "B list" of folks I listen to a lot. Great tone, fantastic feel, moments of true brilliance, but also that other set of things you mention ring true for me. Of course, my playing sucks so bad it'a almost an art form of its own, so I have no room to knock a guy. But you've expressed really well why I just don't put on a day of Grant Green when I'm in the office lashed to my desk. Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Royce Campbell, Russell Malone--so many I can enjoy a whole day of just listening to them. GG I've not gotten there yet.

It might just be my limited taste, but you've described some things here that rang a bell for me.

**lawson-stone** · 09-02-2017, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Has anybody listened to the new Wes Montgomery Smoking in Seattle album with the Wynton Kelly Trio? The first 2 tracks no Wes Montgomery! No guitar whatsoever!

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I listen to it off and on, and enjoy it. Funny, but I never noticed the absence of the guitar on those 2 tracks. They just sounded great and I enjoyed the music. Maybe something's wrong with me!

This is actually worth its own thread.

**FZ2017** · 09-02-2017, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I listen to it off and on, and enjoy it. Funny, but I never noticed the absence of the guitar on those 2 tracks. They just sounded great and I enjoyed the music. Maybe something's wrong with me!

This is actually worth its own thread.

What the subject of the new album or the enjoyment of music?

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**lawson-stone** · 09-02-2017, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

What the subject of the new album or the enjoyment of music?

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The album, I meant. This whole forum is about the enjoyment of music! ;-)

**FZ2017** · 09-02-2017, 03:20 PM

Touche

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**FZ2017** · 09-02-2017, 03:21 PM

Heh that word looks like touch with an E.

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**Doctor Jeff** · 09-02-2017, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

Yeah its a tempting thing to get the mindset of
"I could do that , that's not so good"

That's a bad/wrong mindset on so many levels !
I've been guilty of that sometimes

My reply when someone says that is, "OK, well why don't you do that?"

Making the hard stuff look easy is a special talent few possess. That's why it's Grant Green we're talking about and not Joe Shmoe.