Playing like Louis Armstrong.

[AllanAllen]

But what about all the people who never needed a metronome, because they simply had good time... like good time was "natural" for them... and not for the other.

I have never experienced this player.

[joe2758]

Chopin was a child prodigy and used a metronome as an adult

[rpjazzguitar]

My son has excellent time on multiple instruments and never used a metronome.

At the other extreme, I've played with a person who used the metronome constantly and still had poor time.

On average, I think it's helpful, but some people do well without it and others can't profit enough from it.

[Christian Miller]

Barry Harris said he never used a metronome. Chick Corea didn't like them.

I use a metronome a lot, but I think the metronome is mostly a tool of diagnosis. It can't by itself fix your time. And you need to use it intelligently and diligently to assess primarily - 1) evenness and 2) clock time. It won't teach you to swing.

Old jazz records speed up and slow down over the place and swing like crazy. These days people are more digital and metronome oriented. If you want to work as a session player you better be dead on to the click. It's just expected.

There's time/feel and there's time/feel. Also time =/= feel.

Practicing your rhythm is not necessarily about working with a metronome. It's just what guitar teachers tell you sometimes because actually they don't have much of an idea what else to suggest.

Playing with great musicians helps. Learning drums and percussion. Learning rhythms. Working on rhythmic independence. Speaking or feeling the beat. Taking dance lessons. Listening back to your playing carefully and critiquing.

So there's some ideas there for anyone who wants to work on their feel and time. Some people have naturally better time than others - I have a few beginner students who just have great pocket immediately. It happens. There are also people who've had to work very hard at their time, including a great many professional musicians who have improved greatly at it. Just ask them about it - this are the people who can probably break it down more helpfully rather than just going' your time is bad, man. I dunno, use a metronome.'

I mean, you can't pay an instrument without a growth mindset, and that growth mindset can be applied to rhythm as much as any other area. But then you need to focus on what you'd like to improve about your playing and stop comparing yourself to other people. Easier said than done, of course.

[Christian Miller]

As far as learning stuff by ear and playing along with records goes - I think that's a great way of learning experientially. I do think that the more I've worked on rhythm the more I hear - and the more discerning I get about it and the more exact I can play along with things.

[ruger9]

No I’m saying the opposite.

You see to be saying that anything that didn’t come from a teacher or a book is “innate.” Which is wrong. If something came from experience, it wasn’t “innate.” It came from experience.



Among people who practice a good bit? Not all that often honestly.



Again you seem to be mistaking a specific formal structure (the metronome, eg the teacher) for practice at all. People who don’t play with a metronome absolutely work on their time. Not sure why you’d think they don’t, beyond not knowing better.



Again, the lessons thing.

Not sure why, but what you think I'm saying is not what I'm saying. We'll just leave it at that.

[ruger9]

I have never experienced this player.

I have. So where does that leave us?

The interesting part of this discussion is, some here seem to think there is ONLY ONE way to do this, and have closed their mind to anything that deviates from that concept. Whereas I'm more "different strokes for different folks" and all that.

[ruger9]

My son has excellent time on multiple instruments and never used a metronome.

At the other extreme, I've played with a person who used the metronome constantly and still had poor time.

On average, I think it's helpful, but some people do well without it and others can't profit enough from it.

This is exactly my point. "lessons" "hard work" and "a metronome" don't guarantee anything.... and the lack of them doesn't guarantee anything either.

[pamosmusic]

I have. So where does that leave us?

The interesting part of this discussion is, some here seem to think there is ONLY ONE way to do this, and have closed their mind to anything that deviates from that concept. Whereas I'm more "different strokes for different folks" and all that.

No one here thinks that.

[pamosmusic]

Not sure why, but what you think I'm saying is not what I'm saying. We'll just leave it at that.

Sure man.

[ruger9]

No one here thinks that.

Our perceptions of that "fact" disagree.

[pamosmusic]

Our perceptions of that "fact" disagree.

Haha okay

worth noting that your perception of what people think doesn’t change what they actually do think — but go off

[AllanAllen]

I'd prefer we get back to Louis Armstrong. Did that family that helped him out have a metronome?

[pamosmusic]

I'd prefer we get back to Louis Armstrong. Did that family that helped him out have a metronome?

my perception of that fact is that they did

[AllanAllen]

Brent (OP) if you do come back.

There are a lot of Armstrong recordings, do you have a playlist anywhere of your top recordings? Essential listens?

[James W]

Brent (OP) if you do come back.

There are a lot of Armstrong recordings, do you have a playlist anywhere of your top recordings? Essential listens?

Hot Fives and Sevens?

[ruger9]

Haha okay

worth noting that your perception of what people think doesn’t change what they actually do think — but go off

Again- this is my point entirely. Different strokes for different folks. There IS NO "one way".

Unless you're a Mandalorian.

[ruger9]

I'd prefer we get back to Louis Armstrong. Did that family that helped him out have a metronome?

My point exactly.

[AllanAllen]

Hot Fives and Sevens?

I think OP was going through the Decca years too.

[brent.h]

Hot Fives and Sevens?

I think OP was going through the Decca years too.

Don't have a list, but I was checking out Mahogany Hall Stomp repeatedly last week.

I love Pops' rhythmic variety and how he mixes up his quarter note triplets and regular 8th notes on both recordings.

That ascending line he does in the later part of the song (2, 3&, 1, 2&, 4)... I love that rhythm. Incidentally, it's the 'Second Line' New Orleans march beat (according to Hal Galper, the basis of most if not all syncopation). It's also the standard Bossa Nova clave.

Hot 5s/7s:

Lonnie Johnson is the featured guitar player, and he tears it up!

Decca:

[AllanAllen]

That ascending line he does in the later part of the song (2, 3&, 1, 2&, 4).

About 2:04 in the first one. Really hip stuff.

[Mick-7]

But what about all the people who never needed a metronome, because they simply had good time... like good time was "natural" for them

I have never experienced this player.

It's a rather silly statement, what is "good" time-wise is relative. Would this person who "simply has good time" be able to immediately play anything he hears with the correct rhythms? - odd time signatures, polyrhythms, etc.? I think not.

Metronome history -- A Brief History of the Mechanical Metronome - Guarneri Hall

[Christian Miller]

Though Louis Armstrong played melody and Django harmony, I always have thought of Django as the “Louis Armstrong” of jazz guitar. Both were masters at playing with the rhythm of a tune.
What a great era the 1920’s-1940’s were for jazz.

I feel like Django was more influenced by Louis than any guitarist


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[joe2758]

I think they are generally considered to be pretty good

[brent.h]

Django was very moved by Armstrong's playing. He wept after hearing Pops play Dallas Blues (on recording).