Swing Dance Quartets?

[RLetson]

I suspect that what makes a dance combo work is that it's a rhythm section with at least one lead voice. The Pizzarelli quartet lineup in that video is right in that pocket--two chordal instruments that can double as leads, plus a vocalist for a third. Pizzarelli's guitar is crucial to the swing-beat sound (think the Basie rhythm section), and in his usual trio format, he can and does take over the role of a drummer--he's a terrific rhythm player. But if I were playing for dancers, I'd want a good strong drummer/bass combination as the backbone of the group. (On the other hand, the QHCF lineup swung like crazy without a drummer, as does the Hot Club of Cowtown.)

[Christian Miller]

Anyone know of albums or groups that play swing dance jazz in a quartet or quintet setting? I'm not talking about Ellington or Goodman's small groups, but bands specifically for dancers.

My group has a handle on the lounge/dinner jazz thing and... it gets kind of boring playing music to be ignored. I'm looking for bouncy swing dance tunes in a small setting.

Basically more groups like the Ear-Regulars.

What’s your instrumentation?

One thing that pops into my head is the Spanier/Bechet big four

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[Christian Miller]

Quintet but still pretty cool. Electric guitar and no piano!

You may already by subscribed to this channel but he posts an endless stream of small band swing and trad both on record and live around NY including a lot of Earregulars stuff. But this recording is a find!

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[Christian Miller]

I found a defunct Swing DJ forum and there was a thread on overplayed tunes and surprisingly the Jazz at the Lincoln Center version of C Jam Blues was the standard for swing dances. It's a little slower and they take a single chorus solo which keeps things moving. I'm going to try and copy that feel by trading choruses, 8s, 4s, and 2s then having the leads drop out for a bass or drum solo, then we play an embellished head to end the tune. Jumping up octaves and what not.

All the trading will hopefully replace the extra instruments in the JATLC orchestra.

Good idea.

Social Lindy hop dancers want short tunes (so they can change partners often) in the range 120-180. One challenge is finding the shades of medium tempo.

In the older days dancers used to halve tempo on the uptempo numbers. Modern Lindy hoppers don’t do this for some reason.

As far as the present day swing dance scene is concerned, musicians play too long and too fast.

Other things dancers likes
- stops
- strong out choruses
- rhythmic solos
- musicians who dance (they get it more apparently.)

I think you have the right attitude.


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Quintet but still pretty cool. Electric guitar and no piano!

You may already by subscribed to this channel but he posts an endless stream of small band swing and trad both on record and live around NY including a lot of Earregulars stuff. But this recording is a find!

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Interesting to hear some early John Collins who according to Dizzy was more modern than CC.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting to hear some early John Collins who according to Dizzy was more modern than CC.

Not a name I’d heard in fact… to me he sounds rather similar to CC, I’d need to listen more.


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[bleakanddivine]

Playing for swing dance clubs is a bit of a speciality:

- play some slower stuff too - contrary to popular belief, they don't want uptempo tunes all night, too tiring.
- keep time between tunes to a minimum - they don't want background chat about the tunes, have slick transitions - many will be used to dancing to a constant stream of DJ'd records.
- If there are solos keep the phrasing within the natural 4-bar sections of the tunes to help the dancers time their moves.
- For any intros/outros make it clear when the tune is going to start/stop so the dancers can time their moves.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Not a name I’d heard in fact… to me he sounds rather similar to CC, I’d need to listen more.


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He followed Irving Ashby in the Nat King Cole Trio.

John Collins (jazz guitarist) - Wikipedia

I came across him in Dizzy's autobiography.

[RJVB]

(On the other hand, the QHCF lineup swung like crazy without a drummer, as does the Hot Club of Cowtown.)

Of course. Idem for the rockabilly duos I've heard (guitar/voice + [slap]bass). Salon/court dance ensembles often didn't have percussion instruments at all (and in traditional old-world music they're often held by the dancers.)
I think that from a dance perspective, a drummer provides 2 things: a rythmic "boom" and/or a ditto "tchick". Very audible ones, in absence of amplification, but if other instruments can be loud enough there are enough alternatives to provide those 2 things.

In the older days dancers used to halve tempo on the uptempo numbers. Modern Lindy hoppers don’t do this for some reason.

Well, that wouldn't be so good to get your showy workout in, wouldn't it?
(I have a friend who was into "acrobatic R&R", and mostly not for the fun of dancing.)

- musicians who dance (they get it more apparently.)

- For any intros/outros make it clear when the tune is going to start/stop so the dancers can time their moves.

Who knew that Jonathan Stout is/was an advanced dancer who apparently won competitions? (cf. me reference to dancing as a sport, above...)

As to playing for dancers: this really makes you understand things about the music that are hard to figure out otherwise (esp. about how to end a piece, or transition between movements). I don't think it matters much here if you play from written-out scores or from some other kind of representation.

[AllanAllen]

What’s your instrumentation?

One thing that pops into my head is the Spanier/Bechet big four

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The core band has trumpet, bass, drums, guitar and I can sing. I can hire more guys if I get a budget, I play in a proper big band so I could hire anything I need at this point. Just need the money.

[Webby]

I think Webby would be the go to for that info, but I certainly think you could swing ATTYA hard enough to get people dancing. It's all in how the rhythm section plays.

Ah, I think I got today's video topic

What a nice introduction!

From my perspective based on the Dancing-scenes in central europe, there are some things I have learned.

The Individual scenes vary quite a bit, and there is stuff you might want to take into account. The sweet Spot for lindyhop is more or less at about 120-180 bpm. There are some Scenes that also do Charleston, which basically works in halftime, so faster tempos are cool. In my hometown people are really into "Blues". For dancers a Blues is not a 12-Bar form, but anything with less than 90bpm.
There is a "Death-Zone" between Blues and Lindyhop, which is basically undanceable.
Shag and Balboa Scenes enjoy faster tempos.

Dancers love dynamics and Stops, anything that keeps things interesting for them! We've been experimenting with some Mambo-Swing Repertoire, and people seem to really enjoy to dance to that kind of stuff.

The advice for shorter tunes is great! I'd add to that, that it's good practice to take into Account that dancers often dance 2 tunes together, so sometimes it's cool to build up to faster tunes.

Semi-open hihat>Ride Cymbal

Walk Bass>Two Beat

I would also recommend taking dance lessons. I did so aswell. Although I only have a basic understanding of the mechanics it really helped my playing.


As for tunes: There are some staples which vary from scene to scene, there are two tunes, that are "classics" pretty much everywhere*:

(dancers usually refer to this one as "the shim-sham")

*this was the perfect chance to shamelessly push the Album i put out with my Band, which we actually recorded with dancers in mind.

Paul

[Webby]

The core band has trumpet, bass, drums, guitar and I can sing. I can hire more guys if I get a budget, I play in a proper big band so I could hire anything I need at this point. Just need the money.

That is a great lineup for the start!
Your trumpet Player might be happy to have another lead Instrument. If you stick to playing rhythm he'll be playing most of the the Es and solos which can be pretty demanding for a full evening.
Two Horns also have the advantage that they Start to sound like a section.

Our basic lineup consists of Drums, Bass, Guitar, Saxophone, Trombone. Depending on Venue/Event/Budget we can add Trumpet and Piano.
Most of our Repertoire is arranged with an optional trumpet part, or in different Trumpet and No-Trumpet versions.

[Christian Miller]

What a nice introduction!

From my perspective based on the Dancing-scenes in central europe, there are some things I have learned.

The Individual scenes vary quite a bit, and there is stuff you might want to take into account. The sweet Spot for lindyhop is more or less at about 120-180 bpm. There are some Scenes that also do Charleston, which basically works in halftime, so faster tempos are cool. In my hometown people are really into "Blues". For dancers a Blues is not a 12-Bar form, but anything with less than 90bpm.
There is a "Death-Zone" between Blues and Lindyhop, which is basically undanceable.
Shag and Balboa Scenes enjoy faster tempos.

Dancers love dynamics and Stops, anything that keeps things interesting for them! We've been experimenting with some Mambo-Swing Repertoire, and people seem to really enjoy to dance to that kind of stuff.

The advice for shorter tunes is great! I'd add to that, that it's good practice to take into Account that dancers often dance 2 tunes together, so sometimes it's cool to build up to faster tunes.

Semi-open hihat>Ride Cymbal

Walk Bass>Two Beat

I would also recommend taking dance lessons. I did so aswell. Although I only have a basic understanding of the mechanics it really helped my playing.


As for tunes: There are some staples which vary from scene to scene, there are two tunes, that are "classics" pretty much everywhere*:

(dancers usually refer to this one as "the shim-sham")

*this was the perfect chance to shamelessly push the Album i put out with my Band, which we actually recorded with dancers in mind.

Paul

Good info. Btw I spent about six years playing international swing dance festivals and so on, and this is a good summary of the type of thing.


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[Christian Miller]

Clarinet is incredibly good at lifting the energy of a front line btw. Getting a good clarinetist may be more tricky….


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[AllanAllen]

Thanks to Christian and Webby for all this extra info. That Lester Young track kills.

Webby, your band is fantastic.

[AllanAllen]

This appears to be more of that Lester Young session

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[Phil59]

I play in a band that is primarily aimed at swing dancers, and have heard quite a few other swing bands we've shared bills with. Typically we'll play as a 6-7 piece band, but we've done lots of gigs as a quartet. I think the dancers can go for any size combo as long as its committed to a strong fundamental quarter note feel. They'll accept a range of material as long as that swing feel is maintained. If you talk to dancers, they'll always tell you about going to dances where the band was playing too modern, or played Take Five (not a dance tune at all), or played too many latin tunes, or had too many solo choruses making the tunes too long to dance all the way through. Just gotta take the feel and repertoire the dancers want to hear seriously and they'll reward you with a lot of energy.

Is it about you or the audience? They want to dance! "I think the dancers can go for any size combo as long as its committed to a strong fundamental quarter note feel. They'll accept a range of material as long as that swing feel is maintained." This is it, yes it's that simple!

[olejason]

I play a lot of Gypsy/Hot Jazz which is most often a trio or quartet. As others have mentioned, keeping a solid quarter note swing feel is the key to keeping the dancers in it. Pick songs that have energy but don't get too complicated with it. If I'm on bass and there is no drummer I'll often play a two feel for the whole song because the dancers can easily latch on to it. If I walk bass I keep it low and linear. You don't want to be constantly playing triplet feels or jumping octaves. Kind of the same deal for drummers, doing a drum break on a bridge or occasional trading is fine (and the dancers will dig it) but under no circumstance should the drummer flip the beat, play out of time, or do modern fancy stuff. It should always groove and the beat should be easy to find.

Have a few waltzes and a couple of uptempo high energy tunes (like China Boy above) in your rep to mix it up. A lot of swing dancers nowadays will also be into Tango as well which can be a nice change of pace in the middle of a set.

[AllanAllen]

I play a lot of Gypsy/Hot Jazz which is most often a trio or quartet. As others have mentioned, keeping a solid quarter note swing feel is the key to keeping the dancers in it. Pick songs that have energy but don't get too complicated with it. If I'm on bass and there is no drummer I'll often play a two feel for the whole song because the dancers can easily latch on to it. If I walk bass I keep it low and linear. You don't want to be constantly playing triplet feels or jumping octaves. Kind of the same deal for drummers, doing a drum break on a bridge or occasional trading is fine (and the dancers will dig it) but under no circumstance should the drummer flip the beat, play out of time, or do modern fancy stuff. It should always groove and the beat should be easy to find.

Have a few waltzes and a couple of uptempo high energy tunes (like China Boy above) in your rep to mix it up. A lot of swing dancers nowadays will also be into Tango as well which can be a nice change of pace in the middle of a set.

That's cool, what instrumentation do you usually have? Got any clips I can hear/watch? Any more tunes you want to throw out?

[RJVB]

IAs others have mentioned, keeping a solid quarter note swing feel is the key to keeping the dancers in it.

I saw that, and wondered if the dancers really care if the pulse is quarter notes or something else?

[Christian Miller]

I saw that, and wondered if the dancers really care if the pulse is quarter notes or something else?

They tend to prefer it.


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[RJVB]

They tend to prefer it.

But what difference does it make to them what kind of note you're playing on each beat?

[Christian Miller]

But what difference does it make to them what kind of note you're playing on each beat?

There’s this thing called swing. It’s quite important.

How long your quarter notes are is a function of swing feel.

Go and listen to some records that dancers like (pre war jazz) and consider what you hear.


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[RJVB]

How long your quarter notes are

But I wasn't talking about tempo! (And I'm not going to get into a discussion about that and "swing feel".)

Go and listen to some records that dancers like (pre war jazz) and consider what you hear.

I'll hear notes and a pulse. As long as I'm not also seeing the score I don't care how many flags the notes have that I hear on each pulse.

[pamosmusic]

But I wasn't talking about tempo! (And I'm not going to get into a discussion about that and "swing feel".)



I'll hear notes and a pulse. As long as I'm not also seeing the score I don't care how many flags the notes have that I hear on each pulse.

This would sort of imply that how music sounds has no bearing on how we write it.

Cut time isn't the same thing as 4/4 even though you can write rhythms that sound the same. 3/8 isn't the same thing is 3/4, even though you can write rhythms that sound the same.

Time signature has a pretty significant impact on how a performer places accents and interprets the time-feel and that would matter pretty significantly to a dancer (cut time is in 2, 4/4 is in 4, 3/4 is in 3, 3/8 is in 1, etc).