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Originally Posted by NSJ
I personally rate Zappa as a unique stylist and his playing was one of the things that got me into improvisation beyond - 'here are 8 bars, play all the notes you know' (as FZ put it.)
But yeah, he himself said 'I am not a virtuoso' - he got other people, most famously, Vai on guitar, to play his music. He probably couldn't do it himself, or at least not without diverting time from his main focus - composition.
His son, Dweezil, has put time into being both FZ and Steve Vai, so to speak....
Joe, Tommy - professional guitarists... Virtuosos. And, a reminder of how even master jazz musicians can be very much filtered in their viewpoint.
And Zappa regarded the kind of tin pan alley songwriting that forms the centre of the jazz repertoire as basically - formulaic. Read 'the Real Frank Zappa Book' if you are interested on his thoughts on that. And you know what - he's right. However, I enjoy the way the formulae are used to create beautiful songs that serve as material for improvisation....
TBH I think FZ felt much the same way about tonal classical mussic.
Frank did enjoy tropes, such as three chord rock, doo-wop and so on... But he enjoyed the tropes of his generation.... The rock'n'roll generation... Seems fair enough.
Zappa's coronation as a 'great guitarist' was from others, not him. He thought of himself as a composer. His solos are compositions on his instrument. In his book he goes into great detail about important and difficult it was for him to find a rhythm section that understood what he was doing with polymeter. It's like his tunes, in seemingly simple comedy songs he would randomly insert polyrhythmic passages that would challenge any pro player. For how this ended up in his solos, take a look at stuff in the Frank Zappa guitar book...
And he could back it up. Here is a man who could write music in the tour bus, airport and wherever else and know exactly what it sounded like before a note was played.
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01-28-2018 03:45 PM
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yeah, I'm not disputing anything you've said there.
Going back to the original topic question, on a philosophical level, it reminds me that learning to play guitar is very much a different thing than learning to play piano in the sense that learning to play the piano is learning to play the piano, more or less, regardless of the style of music to be played on the piano (Hal Galper said the same thing).
Learning to play the guitar is not simply learning to play the guitar--it is often contingent on learning to play a specific type of music: for example, my teacher was a master jazz and classical player. But if you wanted to learn rock or flamenco, he would tell you to probably find another teacher.
This instrument is a such a quirky thing--perhaps the most easy instrument to pick up and start playing, perhaps the most difficult instrument to master. I think in order to play jazz guitar, you have learn and spend much time learning jazz and the repertoire surrounding it.
So, therefore, it's not really a stretch to say that Zappa or Hendrix (the other example I cited from that Jazz Times article from many years ago) are not jazz guitarists. They never grew up learning to play the music.
Incidentally, my teacher and Joe P. would often joke to Tommy (who was the consummate studio musician, playing on probably thousands of sessions), "Tommy, every time you play jazz, your first note is spot on; and the last note is right there. But everything in between is....(you can guess what they would say)." And Tommy would answer: well, you know that, and I know that, but thankfully not many others do (whew!)".
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Yeah I 100% agree.
Tomorrow I am starting a period covering the guitar teaching at a university.... It's an interesting thing because when people come to study with me they are usually either beginners or want to learn to play jazz.
So, now I have to coach people who play shred, blues, prog rock and singer songwriter stuff. There are a few jazzers in there, but the question it raises is - what fundamentals do I need to drill down into? I think the process of any musician is basically the same.
Talking about FZ made me think about that....
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Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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Originally Posted by citizenk74
marcel d-
cheers
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Jimi was R&B;
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Montana : Some of this has some psuedo jazzy stuff. Also a nice guitar solo starting around 2 min; definitely not jazz.
And for just fun Zappa entertainment I always enjoyed these :
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The guy was so zany. Find out what can happen to you if you choose a career in music.....
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I was listening to about an hour's worth of Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar today. Superb performances by the rhythm section. FZ was not a technically great musician, but he knew how to get sound out of that guitar--a virtuoso of tone. Not many people rival him for variety of tones.
Sure, other guitarists were faster, more precise and even more fluent in scales and such. But FZ had an anarchic energy that propelled his solos. Listen to Heavy Duty Judy for instance...who else can make a guitar scream like that?
And he knew how to structure a solo:
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Frank had great imagination and jazz chops but he didn't play on changes! Whenever Frank would solo the band would go into a vamp or repeated chord so he could stretch out. In my opinion straight jazzers play on changes. But being a composer Frank was a great improviser. He could create a great composition instantly. But was he a jazz guitarist not technically tho he could've been. Some of his early 70s stuff is jazz fusion so you could call him a jazz fusion/progressive rock guitarist. But truth be told he's a one of a kind. There's not a category for him yet!
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I have been listening to a heckuva lot of Frank recently thanks to this thread. Still amazing listening.
Just reheard Hot Rats--probably my favorite Frank album, along with Overnite Sensation. Gives the band a chance to really stretch out. Very jazz fusiony.
I appreciate all his different styles, though I prefer the fusion stuff best. His early stuff is worthwhile because of the Dadaistic structure, complex compositions and humor.
In the 80's, his songs got shorter, and he got more into social commentary, and to me the songs suffered. I still enjoy the music, but the stuff he commented on just seems pretty silly at this point. "Beauty knows no pain?" "I'm a beautiful guy?" He should have shut up and played his guitar.
And some of his "gimmick" songs like Ya hozna and Teenage Prostitute were just odd.
His later social commentary really went off the rails toward libertarian crankery IMO. When you're making fun of Jesse Jackson, you're out of good targets. And it wasn't even very funny.
I have always liked his orchestral compositions--creative and iconoclastic. Not bad for a self-taught guy. And his complex instrumental pieces like Envelopes, Black Napkins or Sinister Footwear.
He was a genius, and he may be one of the few rock-oriented musicians we will be talking about 50 years from now. Well, some of you younger whippersnappers may, not me.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
I think Terry Bozzio made all the difference! Correct me if wrong, but FZ bands became more tight, hard rockish in the 80's, which is a big plus for my liking.
As far as social commentary, before I could even understand English like I do today, I liked the tunes as are. Now even more, because after I red his auto biography I understand the humor even better, where he was coming from, and I think America does need this kick up its social butt so to speak, lol. Unfortunately, no FZ-like today on the scene.
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The man Frank Zappa must be seen as a synthesis of the arts, a Gesamtkunstwerk - not isolated as a guitar player.
Obviously, Frank didn't want to play out as a "jazz guitarist"; I do not know if he would have been able to do that at all.
Does a universally valid definition of what jazz could be about exist? Jazz greats, especially the black cats, like Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Dexter Gordon, and many others, didn't like the term jazz, they simply talked of and played 'music'.
In terms of his compositions, IMO, FZ undoubtedly was a great. Piano players do not have so much trouble dealing with him in that regard, like, for example, Dave Frank's in-depth look into FZ's music shows .
FZ's song lyrics are unique. A study of his critical attitude towards the state, politics, the music industry, society - the essence of the weaknesses of his fellow human beings in all conceivable professional and private life situations - may be difficult for non-Americans to grasp, but is rewarding.
Art and authentic subculture, for some also the hallmark of genuine jazz music, has always been inherently political and activist when it comes to questioning the consciousness and the moral judgment.
Ok, Frank was cynical, but the increasing ideological and dogmatic harshness of politics, economics, public life and religion is far worse than the acidity of cynicism: the cause of all these evils was the lust for power arising from greed and ambition; and from these passions proceeded the violence of parties once engaged in contention. (Thukydides)
>> It's more the mind 'that thinks jazz' than the instrument 'that plays jazz' that interests me. << - Bill Evans
>> The world is more than cynical. It is indifferent, selfish and shameless. [...] The art world is like a club. They caress each other, make sure that everyone feels well, or have a small dispute. This is not an interesting, rather a boring scene. << - Ai WeiWei
>> Once the artists followed what the church commanded them, today they follow what democracy commands. But it gets lost what makes art important: the opposition. << - Georg Baselitz
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Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
I actually found a Zappa's song that kinda offensive: 'Yo Mama' from Sheik Yerbouti.
''Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
She could do your laundry 'n' cook for you
Maybe you should stay with yo' mama
You're really kinda stupid 'n' ugly too
You ain't really made for bein' out in the street
Ain't much hope for a fool like you
Cause if you play the game, you will get beat''
Thing is, it aims at the most vulnerable subconscious of probably every man at the time of self doubt and fear of failure... I know it's sarcastic and funny, but damn if any of us didnt ever think 'hey, is he talking about me?!'.
Also, it's got of one of his best solos, it's so good it's offensive to the rest of us who would never come up with such powerful sh.t.
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Gesamkunstwerk is my word of the day. Is it a Wagner thing?
Anyway, I have a massive soft spot for the Mothers.... ‘Oh no I don’t believe it you say that with your love you can save the world, I think you’re probably out to lunch...’
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Well put, Ol Fret. He was definitely an intellectual...I have a book called The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play that goes into great detail about his philosophy and mindset. And Europeans have always appreciated him much more than Americans (Vaclev Havel, for example, a great friend and supporter of Frank).
I agree with about 80% of everything he's ever said and written. 10% I think is overdone (antiunion stuff for instance) and 10% just wrong or cranky (some of his AIDS theories as I recall). But that's better than most people I read.
Sheik Yerbouti was the first Zappa album I ever bought and a sentimental favorite. I LOVE "Mama." Nothing really offensive to me in any of his stuff, except I don't really appreciate his weird attraction to black dialect. Seems anachronistic to me, and I guess I don't really get the point.
While his politics became more acute over the years, I think he lost his edge comedically. Like I said, I just don't find the later stuff very pointed or funny. Some things don't age well, and topical humor is one of them.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by NSJ
That's the beauty of guitar ... it sucks people into making music.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Originally Posted by FZ2017
No musician is completely self taught (even FZ had books and records to help him), and every good musician I’ve met is more self taught than their resume might suggest.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yep those 6 or 7 lessons were all HUGE. I worked on the stuff from them for years.
I’m pretty independent in my study... tbh I think most jazz students are. But some students do benefit from constant contact and realignment and making sure that they are doing the exercises correctly.
I believe this can save time, which is why I recommend people to get a teacher - BUT - it’s not necessary if you have the passion and attention to detail.Last edited by christianm77; 02-02-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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We got anybody in here that also plays bass? Cause Zappa had not only some great drummers but also had some virtuosic bass players in his groups!
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KA PAF info please
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