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What Mr. Beaumont said above !
What labels are for ?
For reassure people who need to sort things (and music)
If you listen to FZ work, from the early days 'til the end, you'll notice a lot of different directions that he wanted to explore
For "jazz", listen to Wazoo :
IMHO, that's jazz, but you may think differently.
How I wish he was still alive to see how he'd face today's political life ! (but that's not jazz !)
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01-24-2018 10:38 AM
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These sort of things flareup from time to time. I remember when Jazz Times had a cover story which asked the question, “Jimi Hendrix, jazz guitarist?“
The consensus was that Jimi was a great musician, one-of-a-kind, every superlative you could think of. But he didn’t play jazz. Branford is a big Jimmy Fan, loves him to death, but he had the best quote: “I love Jimi, the only changes he knew were the times which were a change-in”.
Basically it was an attempt to sell magazines. An issue devoted to a non-issue. Why is it important that he be considered a jazz musician? It’s not.
I was simply answering the question by citing two great jazz musicians and their opinion .
I’m a fan of Frank’s music, he optically single-handedly started the genre of progressive rock; especially from hot rats and throughout the 70s. More his instrumental stuff honestly. Like the album cover said, “shut up and play yer guitar “.
My personal opinion is that musicians need to be really humble because the music is itself very humbling . Frank needed to shut up and play his guitar.
As a guitar player, Ill listen to Jimi all day every day, his feel is off the charts . Anyone who strives to get better at music needs to listen to him, no matter what the genre. Frank I’m less sure of, with regard to playing guitar, at least. I would imagine that he needed to listen to Jimi more often, too.
As for labels, I think Duke Ellington said it best: he didn’t like labels, but he also did not suffer any fools easily. Monk too. You can’t bullshit masters of such stature .
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If you read the full article in All About Jazz, you'll see that Frank's quotes have been taken out of context.
What he was really reacting to was....
"the elitist snobbery of a certain type of jazz fan"
"Jazz fans could be bigoted and snobbish. So could certain jazz musicians."
https://www.allaboutjazz.com/zappa-and-jazz-frank-zappa-by-geoffrey-wills.php
And yes in the 70's Frank preferred Ornette Coleman and post-bop Coltrane to Parker. I think many/most of us did back in the 70's.
Re-creating Parker in 2018 is fun, and presumably mandatory for undergraduate jazz degree students, but art it's not.
Apart from Frank's brilliance as a composer, musician, band-leader, guitarist... he remains the US's greatest satirist, at least to me as a foreign Brit.
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do you hear any jazz standard played by Frank Zappa?
Jazz guitarists do that all the time.
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Originally Posted by Dana
Originally Posted by Dana
John
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I'm not sure if Frank was actually making fun of jazz musicians with that line...Frank's humor rarely had one layer.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Shut up and play yer guitar
Time to practice... fun thread!
David
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This brings memories... I think that's my fav FZ solo
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Thank you for the thoughtful replies. I know that on the internet these kinds of questions are often meant to be provocative. In my case, I'm curious what people think. I have no strong feelings on the matter, though I have encountered people who are willing to go to war on such matters.
During the past year I've read a lot about jazz and jazz guitar. During the past week, I've dipped into Zappa's memoir, such as it is. Somewhere behind his vulgarity and juvenile attitude, Zappa seems to have had serious thoughts about composition, but it's hard to tell because he doesn't elaborate on what he knows. His attraction to the Varese record when he was a kid looks like admiring the weird for the sake of being weird. There's nothing in the book that reveals a love or commitment to guitar or music generally. There's plenty about what he doesn't like.
I don't consider him a jazz guitarist and I doubt he considered himself one. He preferred eclecticism and resisted categorization. But you know there's no way around categorization. Given that people do it, we might as well try to get it right. Perhaps what people bristle about is excessive categorization or stultifying categorization. But you can't be open to everything. There's nothing wrong with making choices about the kind of music you want to play or listen to.
Regarding some of the comments above, the question of jazz versus not jazz is complicated but not impossible. Some people don't consider jazz fusion jazz, so that would solve the Zappa question. I recently read a comment by a jazz guitarist saying Pat Metheny wasn't playing jazz. Sometimes that's probably true, which I'm OK with because I love much but not all that Metheny's done. I buy music that I like. I'm not a jazz guitarist. For four years in college, I studied classical guitar, but I wasn't very good. I found music theory baffling.
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Here are Bruce Fowler and George Duke blowing over Frank's changes. (1:31 marks the start of what is unquestionably THE BEST trombone solo ever played in a rock band.)
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As soon as we get a crystal clear definition of what jazz is, I'll be able to figure out if Zappa was a jazz player.
I do recall, from a GP interview, that he said he didn't like playing over changes and preferred playing over vamps.
I haven't listened to him enough to know if that was a joke, but it didn't strike me that way when I read the interview.
Was Jerry Garcia a jazz musician? He played over changes, he played in odd meters, and he improvised all the time. I don't think of him as a jazz player (whatever that might mean) because the band's music didn't contain much of what I think of as a classic jazz sound.
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Frank Zappa? Sui generis. I had all his early stuff up through Uncle Meat. Lumpy Gravy was a particular favorite, as was Rueben and the Jets. We're Only in it for the Money contains some of the most trenchant social observation I've ever heard. I mean, like, what is the ugliest part of your body??
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Shut up an play yer guitar is my pick for greatest Fusion release of all time. I got to see it live. It was non stop from start to finish the most impossible imaginable, performed to perfection. Not just guitar but every instrument. A pinnacle not even R2F reached.
so I consider Zappa to be the king of fusion as in all his releases he certainly fused every style possible into them.
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Originally Posted by citizenk74
In the 70's jazz wasn't dead, it just smelt funny. Now it's dead, stuffed, and in a museum, with the occasional breakout of necromancers and walking dead zombies.
Moreover, this forum is replete with the smug petit bourgeois twaddle that Frank loved to satirise.
(The thread was a troll, so let's not make war about it.)Last edited by sunnysideup; 01-24-2018 at 06:10 PM.
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I have a feeling today Frank wouldn't exactly fit with the society. Man, this thread made me realize how much I miss him!
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I'm just happy to see a lot of FZ love in this thread! I wouldn't call him a jazz guitarist, but I really don't care much about that label anyways. I appreciate humility a lot, but it's not everyone's virtue especially for borderline geniuses like Jaco or dare I say Frank
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I love Frank Zappa. We need him now.
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the mothers guitar
cheers
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Somebody mentioned Ruth Underwood....
Here's some of the best you will ever hear!
Also one of Frank's best solo's (recorded live no less)
The Defense Rests! (sorry ... watching Perry Mason)
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I just called the 70's and they concur that Frank Zappa was in fact a jazz guitarist...
Glad that's settled.
Back to modal studies and cleaning my bong now.
I had something really important to say on the genius thread..
I forgot what it was.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
He made fun of everything pompous or fake, or oppressive, or stupid, and never worried about if he offended someone's feelings. He would be 'shamed' today like crazy on all social medias. At least in US, that is.
Your views are your views on him, I don't like arguing on internet for too long. Lets just celebrate his legacy. At least I will.
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If we take to many swings at musicians alleged personalities wouldn't it be problematic to dig Miles Davis?
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There’s some jazz influence on Waka/Jawaka Hot Rats, one of my favourites.
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This is jazz staff recorded by top legends.
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Originally Posted by countermoon
I hear a lot of fusion in his music -- fusion from many genres.
He's not jazz the way I think of jazz, but that and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. All I know is that he played his ass off, and is there anything else?
KA PAF info please
Today, 11:52 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos