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I'll admit that I know Chicago more from the radio then listening to albums straight through, and BST more from (mainly the first two) albums. But, yeah, early Chicago is really good. And I'll repeat that the first BS T album is a very different concept from everything that came after.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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09-23-2017 09:58 AM
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A lot depends on how you define "rock". But in, say, 1969 the Stones, Leon Russell/Joe Cocker, Janis Joplin all had, if not sections, a couple of horns (Bobby Keys and Jimmy Price must be on 500 records). White AOR was guitar-centric, but rock defined more broadly to include soul, funk, and other pop formats much less so. I listened mostly to AM radio until high school (WABC). Tons of horns there.
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Wow. You remind me, the first time I met Mike Sterns was in Munich at the Domicile when he was on tour with BST. I had forgotten. 1979 or 80.
Chicago was more of a band.
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A shout out to Canadian Lighthouse and the recently departed Skip Prokop.
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Well, not to quibble a lot, OK, maybe a little, but there's no way early Chicago can't be considered jazz rock--check out the charts on Make Me Smile for instance.
Earth Wind and Fire was certainly jazz-rock-funk--Maurice White was a jazz drummer of course. Great charts. Sly Stone not very jazzy IMHO, while Clinton's P-Funk stuff was more rock and funk than jazz, though their early stuff veered heavily into fusion.
Special shout-out to Zappa and his 70's bands, which were pushing the envelope of the genres, with the Brecker Brothers, etc.
Re' You've Made Me So Very Happy--DCT was just a phenomenal singer. Great song. But if I never hear If You Leave Me Now again, it'll be too soon. That's the stuff we rebelled against in the 70's. Smooth rock...
Ironic since Peter Cetera is a good singer and bass player. He just shouldn't be allowed to write songs like that, by law.
And while I love all the Janis/Leon/Band stuff of the era, it really is just "rock with horns." The arrangements are not very complex. Bobby Keys is great at what he does and is of course the centerpiece of so many great songs, but he doesn't sound jazzy to me in the least.
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And let's not forget Electric Flag
John
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FWIW, a young Terry Kath studied with Bellwood, Illinois based jazz guitarist Stu Pearce. Not too much info on him on the inter webs, but here are some Soundcloud clips, and I think there's a tribute page on the Facebook
PK
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nobody rocked the horn section harder than sly and the family stone...they influenced everybody...from james brown, fela, marley to electric miles on down...
"all the squares go home!"
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 09-23-2017 at 06:32 PM.
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There was a lot of controversy when Kooper left the band. I read Koopers auto-bio (Backstage Passes and Backstabbing Bastards) and then Steve Katz' recent auto-bio (Blood Sweat and Rock& Roll), and they were in conflict about his leaving. Originally Posted by docbop
Kooper said it was a mutiny, and Katz said they couldn't take his singing anymore, and offered him the option of staying on as keyboard player/songwriter, but no more vocals.
I didn't know who to believe until I heard this tape of Kooper with BS&T live:
Keep in mind that it's not the best quality recording, but also keep in mind that Bobby Colomby and Steve Katz (who were the ones who first came up with the idea for BS&T, and then pitched it to AK) couldn't handle touring with a singer that sounded like Kooper live.
Kooper sounded much better in the studio, but if you listen closely to CITFTTM, you can hear what they were talking about.
Here's DCT singing the same song live:
Another thing about Kooper was that he couldn't even cut a lot of the keyboard parts on CIFTTM.
The producer of the LP, John Simon, had to play them for Kooper.
Simon was also responsible for the genius (IMHO) string quartet arrangement of Kooper's, The Modern Adventures of Plato, Diogenes and Freud.
Another unrecognized part of BS&T's tremendously successful and musical 2nd LP was the trombonist/arr. Dick Halligan, whose arrangements were much superior to Kooper and Lispius' arrangements on CIFTTM.
My personal fave of jazz-rock bands around then was the UK band IF, whom I saw live every time they were in NY back then.
Here's a cut of them live featuring Melody Maker Jazz Poll Winner Terry Smith on guitar:
Last edited by sgcim; 09-24-2017 at 01:07 AM.
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Yup, Kooper is really not a very good singer, and back then he was still more a guitar player who could play a little keyboards than he was a keyboard player. I've got the Al Kooper boxed set (Rare and Well Done), which offers plenty of evidence of his limitations. But he made a lot of music I really like. I can't really sat the same about David Clayton Thomas. Technically, a great singer. But too glib and slick for me. Originally Posted by sgcim
John
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Looking forward to it. And hey, if I can get up at a jam, anyone can. Originally Posted by Perdido
John
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My parents had Live at the Cafe Au GoGo and Projections, so I grew up with those records. We lived around the corner from the Cafe Au GoGo. It closed when I was maybe 7 or 8, so I never went, but the awning was there for a few years after, and so seeing it on a record was always cool. I took some lessons from Danny Kalb in high school. I still play Alberta from time to time ... I've seen Al Kooper with Jimmy Vivino and the ReKooperators, but never the Blues Project or BST, alas. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
John
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The very definition of "wrestling a Strat"
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If I took lyrics out of the equation, these guys would be good for me. Found a live version of one of my favourite tracks (whose title, I freely admit, now gives me a cheap laugh). And is that Barry Finnerty? Collaborations like these are of almost mythic proportions.
And just heard EWF's superior take on Bread's Make It With You:
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Read a couple places that Kath taught Cetera bass. Cetera was asked to join the band because they needed a tenor. Cetera was later asked to leave the band because they needed a tenor....with a smaller ego.
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Wow--that's phenomenal. What a monster on guitar--no pedals either *except* the wah, which he plays as well as anybody. Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
It's been said that he was Hendrix' favorite guitarist. I can see why.
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You need yodeling and flutes to be true jazz rock;
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Wow is right. He looks like Fat Time's twin brother. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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I was a kid listening to WLS AM 89 in 1969 and I remember that CTA changed he world as we knew it. It's just not possible to overestimate how much impact those first few Chicago albums had in shaping young peoples' ears at the time. Those records exposed mainstream radio audiences to R&B and enjoyed success in a way that few acts can compare to. Growing up in Chicago both bands were popular, but if you were from Chicago then you had to love Chicago. It was like a badge of honor for the locals to have a major act named after the City that was producing such great music. As a kid in middle school band my first instrument was trumpet and we were playing Chicago scores -- that's how *BIG* Chicago was at the time. Those first 3 albums were groundbreaking. I remember sneaking into the basement when my brother wasn't home to play his Chicago and BST recordings on open reel tape... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Later on I ended up playing Fender bass and spent time on the R&B circuit in Chicago playing with full horn sections. Without any doubt, both early Chicago and BST were major influences in that regard. When I ended up moving to a smaller city I was sad to find that the R&B scene just wasn't happening. Nobody wanted to support bands with horn sections.
CTA was incredible. Here it is:
Sadly, there came a time when I just began to hate what Chicago had become. I blame Peter Cetera for that.
Maybe my love for those first few Chicago records is a local-kid thing. If I had grown up in San Francisco I probably would have been listening to Tower of Power on the radio. They had the best rhythm section on the planet. I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned them. Here they are at the same time:
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Jeff Beck, of course: Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Personally, in high school us bumpkins were digging us some CS&N, Allman Bros, Sly Stone. Creedence, Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, etc. We weren't getting too excited about Chicago, and sappy overplayed songs like this just made us reject them even more...
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Sappy? Yes. Overplayed? Yes. Like most young wannabe rockers in high school I was rolling my eyes whenever I heard it, but once I studied the chart and discovered the the Major 7th and 9th chords I realized that the song had some merit. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Why was it overplayed? Because it was THE best song on the radio for getting a slow dance with a hot chick. That didn't work as well with the Allmans, Creedence, Floyd, Zeppelin or Sly and the Family Stone.
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Colour My World was something special and remains so. I hear high school proms still use it for their theme.
It is special to for a different reason. I pulled roadie duty one night for a buddy and his band who got a gig at a masonic temple. He was a hard rocking guy with a Big Muff Pi. Really the wrong band for such an event. When they took a break, the band was disgusted with their cool reception and the crowd was glad to have a break from the din. I pulled up a chair, grabbed Jeff’s Melody Maker, turned off the Big Muff and played the arpeggioed verse to Colour My World. What happened? Couples began to slow dance to it. I got the signal to keep playing and without the vocals repeated the instrumental probably six times. The crowd applauded. For the first time in my life, I felt like a musician.
Couples slowed danced to my playing and I stood once on the yellow brick road. Things have been pretty good.
The yellow brick road? That’s another story.
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That record is undeniably one of the greatest of all time in my book. And yes, growing up in Chicago...I even have a soft spot for some of the later "Peter Cetera Show" stuff. Originally Posted by BeBob
But CTA...jeez...I thank my Dad for introducing it to me, back when I first started playing the guitar. I think his tastes shaped a lot of who I am today, musically...my friends' dads/older brothers all dug the generic same classic rock, Stones, Zep, Sabbath, whatever...but my pops loved Chicago, Fleetwood Mac, Dire Straits...
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[Sadly, there came a time when I just began to hate what Chicago had become. I blame Peter Cetera for that.
Maybe my love for those first few Chicago records is a local-kid thing. If I had grown up in San Francisco I probably would have been listening to Tower of Power on the radio. They had the best rhythm section on the planet. I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned them.
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T of P absolutely 'cooked'. CTA and BS & T - - were not even close ! And then we radio listeners - looking for jazz stations - had to put up with all the talk about what a breakthrough jazz-rock was.
And since then, sadly, radio hasn't gotten any better either.
The word ' sappy', used earlier, comes to mind.
MHO
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