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Or, how I stopped worrying and learned to love dim chords
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03-28-2024 02:19 PM
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I'm an intermediate-level player so your forbearance is respectfully requested. That said, these are my perspectives on diminished chords. At the outset, it's important to recognize that one measure is the longest we'd typically encounter a diminished chord. So that's eight notes, triplet slurs and the like notwithstanding. Having wrestled with H/W and W/H diminished scales, the reality is that, for me anyway, it's a matter of get in and get out. So it's more about chord tones and approach notes.
In this regard, I've learned to look at the function of a diminished chord, which often is a 7b9 chord written as diminished to maintain, for example, a descending/ascending chromatic bass line. So in the key of C a move from Cmaj7 to C#dim is really Cmaj7 to A7alt. Here I often play A phrygian dominant, which has a diminished arpeggio with approach note built in. In other situations there's a four-note H/W/H sequence from melodic minor (as well as diminished scales) that's pretty handy and intuitive.
Perhaps a relevant example of the various functions of diminished chords is It Could Happen to You. Sometimes the diminished chord is a 7b9 and (as Freud might've said) sometimes a diminished chord is just a diminished chord. Regardless, I appreciate your videos and thanks for the opportunity to express my perspectives.
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Love the video. Just jotted down a compendium of different approaches for anyone who may find it helpful. In my search for the most inside option, it usually VII7b9 and sometimes II7b9 in most chromatic diminished options (b3, #4). Pretty much a rotation of what you've presented, why not capitalize on the dom language you already know).
biii dim to ii min (chromatic diminished)
1. ignore - pat martino (how insensitive, comping is min7 shell)
2. V of II play as 1 6 3 5 - wynton kelly (SMPWC)
3. mi7 planing - Joe pass (night and day), wynton kelly (SMPWC)
4. H/W Dim scale
5. 7th mode harmonic minor
6. VII7b9#9 - phrygian dom + #9 (maj bebop) resolve to the extentions of the ii chord - Coleman hawkins, wes
7. V of V - II7b9#9 resolve to V chord
8. Mixo rotations b3 up from dom b9 chords -less honoring of dim7, makes it a half dim
9. Harmonic major (changes b4 to 4)
Idim7 (Tonic diminished)
1. VII7 (Wes - If Should Lose You)
2. W/H
#ivdim7 to I64 (2nd inv)
1. Ignore - most blues
2. H/W scale
3. VII7b9 - resolve to iii in maj
4. II7b9 - resolve to v on blues
5. Harm major
6. Mixo rotations b3 up from dom b9 chords (II7 and IV7 - this one is like ignoring) - less honoring of dim7, makes it a half dim
Any dom (viidim) or secondary dom dim:
1. Dim chord is 3rd degree of dominant
2. Multiple dominant scale options
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buduranus2, The G, A & D chords in that chart are m7b5 chords (altered IIm7 chords). No one uses the O with slash through it sign anymore for m7b5/half-diminished - or at least shouldn't.
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I always use that sign. Why shouldn't I?
Originally Posted by Mick-7
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"I always use that sign. Why shouldn't I?"
Hey, do whatever you like, however, unlike the m7b5, it may be misinterpreted.
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How many Phrygian dominant licks do you know? (because between you and me I know about four.) Originally Posted by buduranus2
I'm an intermediate-level player so your forbearance is respectfully requested. That said, these are my perspectives on diminished chords. At the outset, it's important to recognize that one measure is the longest we'd typically encounter a diminished chord. So that's eight notes, triplet slurs and the like notwithstanding. Having wrestled with H/W and W/H diminished scales, the reality is that, for me anyway, it's a matter of get in and get out. So it's more about chord tones and approach notes.
In this regard, I've learned to look at the function of a diminished chord, which often is a 7b9 chord written as diminished to maintain, for example, a descending/ascending chromatic bass line. So in the key of C a move from Cmaj7 to C#dim is really Cmaj7 to A7alt. Here I often play A phrygian dominant, which has a diminished arpeggio with approach note built in. In other situations there's a four-note H/W/H sequence from melodic minor (as well as diminished scales) that's pretty handy and intuitive.
Perhaps a relevant example of the various functions of diminished chords is It Could Happen to You. Sometimes the diminished chord is a 7b9 and (as Freud might've said) sometimes a diminished chord is just a diminished chord. Regardless, I appreciate your videos and thanks for the opportunity to express my perspectives.
Otoh I have lots and lots of things I can play on plain dominant chords.
That’s the main reason. Not looking on chords as being individual cases but finding ways you can apply what you already know in as many situations as you can.
This the logic behind seeing an Em7b5 A7b9 as running C7 down to the third of A7 rather than A Phrygian dominant/D harmonic minor. As Barry said ‘don’t get stuck in harmonic minor’ I guess he didn’t have many of those licks either lol
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by who? People who can’t read charts? Originally Posted by Mick-7
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But it means m7b5 so how could it be misinterpreted? Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Not everyone knows that and/or understands the difference between dim. 7th & half-dim. 7th (min7b5) and their harmonic applications. But I suppose it's accepted short hand? Originally Posted by Irishmuso
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Jeez, people are getting rather peevish here.... (1) buduranus2 post, to which I replied, suggested he thought they were Dim.7 rather than m7b5 chords (not an uncommon error), and (2) the Real Books have been known to have incorrect chord changes in them.
I'm not on a Mac, there may be a way to make that sign on my pc of which I'm not aware.
"Ø = Half-Diminished Seventh = Minor Sixth = Minor with the sixth in the bass (Thelonious Monk)"
The Real Book page posted had two different symbols for the half-dim chord (with and without the 7), and it has m7b5 on other charts - just a mess.
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I would be surprised if that was the case Originally Posted by Mick-7
Would someone mistake the sign for a diminished chord for the sign for a m7b5? They are two different signs and two different things. I love the m7b5, it's function and it's relationship to a dominant in a minor key. I also find the standard sign for it very useful and very widely accepted
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You're probably right in my case Originally Posted by Mick-7
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To sum up: Here we have a "Real" book with 4 different symbols for the same or similar chord, 0, 0/ (line through 0, half-dim) , 0/7 (half-dim 7), and m7b5. I think anyone has the right to be confused by that!
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And yet music continues to be made! Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I think you are worrying about something that isn’t really an issue in the real world. I think the theta sign as m7b5 is widely understood from Aebersold etc. Originally Posted by Mick-7
If you spend some time reading charts in big bands and so on you are going to see a lot of shit haha. Not even mentioning French or Brazilian variations and so on. (Or German variations that I found out about the other day because of Musescore. Never seen those.)
In any case in terms standardised of chord notation m7b5 is Berklee standard. I see no reason not to stick to that. But I find it long winded to write and say, even though I tend to use it myself (because it’s standardised.)
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In the Real Books (older editions anyway) they use both the half-dim symbol (O with slash through it), and the same symbol with 7th (O7). Is that a valid distinction, same chord, isn't it? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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half-dim is a seventh chord per definition. therefore Cø7 is a fantasy chord symbol Originally Posted by Mick-7
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The theta symbol originates with classical theory which is where the term ‘half diminshed’ originates. According to Wikipedia (ymmv) the usage Bø7 etc is standard in this context. It makes sense because the diminished triad is given as a circle while the diminished seventh is o7.
I’ve seen both in charts.
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Youre saying in old real books they use the half diminished symbol and the fully diminished symbol both to refer to to the half diminished chord? I don’t recall having seen this. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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yeah, but there is no half-diminished triad. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Which is why I would imagine there wouldn’t be any confusion over what it means. Originally Posted by djg
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You gonna have to take it up with dusty music professors. I don’t have a dog in this fight. Originally Posted by djg
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Not sure I'm following you. While I agree many people who play music don't know the difference between dim 7th and half-dim (m7b5), given that lack of knowledge, what difference would it make whatever 'label' one puts on a lead sheet. Originally Posted by Mick-7
E.g. I taught some rocker friends how to play Honey Pie. Paul uses a m7b5 chord in the 'b' section. It wouldn't matter how I wrote this chord on the lead-sheet. Thus, I had to show them a voicing (grip), that they could use. AND, I know that if I start to get into anything that starts to smell like theory (e.g. same as the min7 chord you play here,,,,,, just lower the 5 by half-a-step), I will be shown the door!
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Great video. I liked the lines and I liked the trick. I'd been thinking about how to approach making more natural sounding lines using dim or altered scales. I find that BHish sound quite pretty with the added notes on the bebop mix scale and the dim chromaticism of imposing/shifting mix over a dim chord. Gonna continue watching the video and try to absorb the material.
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