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I was never confused about those symbols before.
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03-31-2024 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
mi7b5..mi6..Dom9 (no root)..Alt Dom#5b9
and if you want to get way out there..use some Ben Monder/Ted Green thinking
the half dim symbol is good..if you know which half is diminished !
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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We have an expression down here in the South: "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then." Such is (apparently) the case here. I made the unfortunate mistake of listening with my ears instead of my eyes. But, in a roundabout and slightly convoluted way I believe I've proved my point(s.)
As we are well aware, the Real Book is hardly an authoritative source. It often/typically has the substitutions written in, obscuring the original structure. In this regard, there's no more reliable source than Ralph Patt's Vanilla Book (Index) So here we see unambiguously that the composer's intent was as I had mentioned in my previous post. Specifically, to use diminished chords to maintain an ascending chromatic bass line.
The Real Book example I posted in error actually "exonerates" me to at least a limited extent. Let's look at the Ebmaj7 Gø move. As I hear the song (and as corroborated by Ralph Patt) the song goes from Ebmaj7 to Edim. If we look at Gø as Bbmi6 (three in one chord) the only difference is the F in Bbmi6 vs the E in Edim. So the Berklee student writing the chart heard it wrong, and the one-note difference completely changes the composer's intent.
As for how many phrygian dominant licks I know, I'd say not too many but enough to get 'er done. Appreciate the replies and perspectives!
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(People also play different changes on tunes.)
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The only bar in Patt's chart I'd quibble with is bar 9, the IIm7 chord (Bbm7) is commonly played rather than the IV chord (although Bbm7 = DbM6), similar to the F7b9 (A dim) to Bbm7 in bars 2 to 3.
I find it it easier to think of (remember) the dim.7 chords as 7b9 chords, might feel differently if I was a bass player.
But after all that talk about half-dim/m7b5 chords, they are nowhere to be seen! Apparently the Real Book chart guy feels that a 7b9 chord should always have a m7b5 chaperone, God only knows what sort of trouble they'ed get into on their own!Last edited by Mick-7; 03-31-2024 at 10:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
He played the ii-Vs in bars 2 and 4.
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Idk if you listen to the Miles version, Paul Chambers is quite clearly playing the ascending bass ala the Patt chart while Red seems to playing dominants and ii Vs. Best of both worlds?
Also they play V7 at bar 9
Of course Miles always got the changes wrong, so…
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Otoh Bud plays the changes in that real book chart buduranus posted pretty much… unsurprisingly, Barry’s reading takes Bud’s as a basis, but adds some more harmonic subs.
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Anyway the relationship between ii V and a leading tone dim chords is pretty obvious. Where it’s less obvious imo is with bIIIo7 and #IVo7
This is where a lot of the non functioning ii V’s in real book era charts come from.
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Originally Posted by buduranus2
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Good video, Christian.
"Today I'd like to talk about..." is a great introductory line. Never change it!
I learned about diminished chords from Carol Kaye. She takes a simple approach: any diminished chord = the 7b9 chord a half-step below it and repeats every 3 frets. Thus G7 = Abo Bo Do and Fo (Here "o" serves as the unelevated symbol for a diminished chord.) It runs both ways: you can use diminished patterns over dominant chords and dominant patterns over diminished chords.
The up three frets rule is interesting. It applies elsewhere, such as in the difference between pentatonic major and minor. Also in songs that go from I major to i minor. (Play the same line up 3 frets and it works. Not only does it work; this was common practice.) Perhaps a thread on the 3-fret rule is in order.
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Originally Posted by buduranus2
>>>>>Forinstance, in the tune, "It Could Happen To You", the 2ndchord in the key of F, is F#o but solo-wise you think of D7 whichthen resolves to the next chord (cycically) Gm7, but it's common forthe F#o (same as Ebo which is the same as D7b9, hence the D7 chordfor soloing) which dictates the movement of the bass note going fromF to F# to G etc. The next chord change being Abo which is E7b9solo-wise. E7b9 which is also the same as Fo, Bo, and Do, thenresolves to Am moving up to Cm7 to F7b9 to Bb -- typical cyclemovements in tunes.
CarolKaye USA
Submittedat: 21:58 on Saturday, June 6, 1998<<<<
Note that most of Carol's tips are directed to bass players, but as she started out (in the studio) on guitar and has taught many students on guitar, she provides tips for guitarists as well. Many apply to both instruments.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Transposing the same idea up three frets is a time honoured approach is a time honoured approach to playing II V Is. For example
Dm7b5 Fm7b5 —> Cm etc
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Nice video - Christian, you mention that Barry Harris had a similar approach to minor 2-5s.
If it's not complicated to explain, can you please?
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Sam b
You relate Bm7b5 to G7 and run the G7 scale down to the third of E7 - G#
eg
F E D C B A G#
(Which is the A harmonic minor scale, but also I don’t care)
This allows you to play all your G7 stuff on the ii V. It’s up to you if you put in the G#.
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Thanks!
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bit late but …..
Thanks Christian that video
is super super helpful to me
I could never make diminished scale
stuff work for me
and it’s sooo simple to use
fab
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You’re welcome!
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