-
I like you already!
Originally Posted by Unclegrumpy
Welcome to the forum
-
03-21-2024 04:53 PM
-
The op ran away.
-
C HM: C D Eb F G Ab B C Originally Posted by Tal_175
G PhrygDom: G Ab B C D Eb F (same notes).
Now lets name the chord G B D F are G7. That leaves Ab C and Eb. Leaving the C aside for a moment, that's a G7b9b13 - 6 note scale. G Ab B D Eb F.
Call it a G7b9b13 scale and you're done. The chord name specifies the scale, completely.
Any time there a 7 note scale with a so-called avoid note, maybe it would be better to think of the hexatonic (6 notes) and leave the avoid note out.
Or, you could learn "phrygian dominant" without having to relate it back to the parent "harmonic minor".
And, either way, PD or HM, you'd get the C back and, frankly, I don't think you want it against G7b9b13, although you might like it against Dm7b5 (D F Ab C). The C to B movement makes the chord change.
If you're comping, you might play x5656x to xx3444 or similar. That second one should look like a rootless Db9. Often, guitarists will play the Bb (6th fret high E, making it kinda a Db13) and move to the Ab.
If the chart says Galt, that's a G7 with both alterations of the 5th and both alterations of the 9th. If you have to have a scale name it's Galt, which is the 7th mode of Abmelmin. Guitarists often play only two alterations, the #5 and #9 (moving often, to the b9), which comes back to my hexatonic G7b9b13 plus a high Bb.
If you think Abm (add 9) over G7 you get the sound.
The point, which I probably didn't need to make again, is that going by chord names rather than scale names has some value.
-
Whether one likes G7b9b13 or Phrygian Dominant (both with added #9 of course Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
) depends on their approach to improvisation.
Vocabulary oriented players may like Phrygian dominant (or harmonic minor from the 5th) for minor ii V, because it's very analogous to ii V in major.
What I mean is, it is common to treat Dmin7 G7 as one group of vocabulary. Even though you have two "problematic" notes (the note B over Dmin7 and the note C in G7), the melodic strength of the lines takes precedence over the potential clashes in practice. Moreover the "problematic" notes often become passing notes just like the commonly used chromatic notes.
Some people mainly base their ii V vocabulary on the Dorian scale (Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery), others base it on the dominant (Barry Harris, Bird). But the idea is you have one set of vocabulary for the major ii V's.
The minor ii V is however sometimes treated with two scales. One approach Barry Harris taught was to play Bb7 into G7 (or any two of the dominants in the family). Another common approach is D locrian #2 and G altered. These are all wonderful but they are more complicated to learn than the major ii V. Now you're playing the changes over ii V.
Using Phrygian Dominant means one set of vocabulary for minor ii V or altered dominants. Just like in the major case, the note C over G7 is a non-issue as long as the vocabulary is strong. In fact, the problem notes become the beautiful notes sometimes.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-21-2024 at 09:58 PM.
-
Probably taking up fly fishing after this shit show. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
-
-
One more life is saved from being ruined.
-
^ I was depressed for a long time being an inadequate player. I'm pretty happy with my level now though. It's made me happier with my life. Only took 20 years lol!
-
Oh I've never been unhappy being immersed in guitar or jazz, it's just that it can take over your life a bit at times. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Last edited by Tal_175; 03-21-2024 at 10:06 PM.
-
If I've figured out anything about jazz, it's that the first 20 years are the hardest. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
-
The vocabulary oriented players may like Phrygian dominant (or harmonic minor from the 5th) for minor ii V, because it's very analogous to ii V in major. What I mean is, it is common to treat Dmin7 G7 as one group of vocabulary.
This is interesting to me because I didn't learn this way and don't think about such things. I'm not saying I shouldn't. I was taught that it's C tonal center and I learned the notes in the chords sort of in three groups -- 1) consonant 2) harder to use 3) and maybe leave alone until you're ready. Chord tones tend to sound good on the beat and passing tones off the beat, but there are lots of exceptions.
The minor ii V is however sometimes treated with two scales. One approach Barry Harris taught was to play Bb7 into G7 (or any two of the dominants in the family). Another common approach is D locrian #2 and G altered. These are all wonderful but they are more complicated to learn than the major ii V. Now you're playing the changes over ii V.
To me, you might think of playing D General Minor (my term, D E F G A Bb B C C# -- all the notes from natural, harmonic and melodic) and then play G dominant-with-alterations. Common alterations are b9, #9 and b13. So it's a lot of notes to choose from and, clearly, some of them may be poor choices. Which is why the Second Basic Principle of my system (if you can call it that) is to Omit Notes That Don't Sound Good.
In fact, when I see a Dm7b5 going to Galt, I think mostly about chord tones. D F Ab C, with the possibility of adding G and E. Then think, Bb, B, both or neither? What about Eb?
Dm7b5 is the locrian chord in Eb. It's also the sixth mode of Fmelmin aka Locrian #2. Difference? One has an Eb and the other has an E. I usually go with E, but it's all by ear. I don't think about this. As far as the B and Bb go, I revert to my Second Basic Principle.
I've heard the Barry Harris advice about Bb7 to G7. I get that line, but how to you generalize that advice for other situations?
Another way, not that I use it, is to ignore the iim7b5 and just play on the V7 while listening to the harmony and adjusting as needed.
If you're getting bored with your m7b5 licks bear in mind that the same notes are also a m6 chord as in Cm7b5 = Ebm6. It's also a rootless Ab9. That might help someone break out of a rut.
-
Then we did him a favour. In my experience I'd say only 2% of rock players will have what it takes to cross over into Jazz. And while it almost amounts to bullying when some of us bombard the poor bastards with a summary of all the things WE think they need to know, I personally feel it's a little disingenuous to say " come on in brother, the water's fine, you know how to float, right? We'll have you swimming in no time..." Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
-
For the record, there are others: Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Eb harmonic major scale (= major scale with b6th)
Ab hungarian minor will also fit (= Ab harmonic minor with raised 4th)
Diminished, include the Eb.
Combine the symmetrical scales, i.e., dim & whole tone, like say: G-Ab-Bb-B (dim) > Db-Eb-F-G (wt)
Point being, G7b9b13 doesn't imply a specific scale to me.
-
[FONT=arial]
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Here's my take.
G7b9b13 has six notes. G B D F Eb Ab
Eb harmonic major is Eb F G Ab Bb B D. So it adds a Bb. That's a pretty good note to add. If I was going to play a 7 note scale for that particular chord, I'd probably play this one.
Dim + WT is the formula for melodic minor, so that's pure Galt. You could play against this chord, but you might not like the Db. But it would work.
Ab Hungarian minor: Ab Bb B D Eb E G. Looks good except for the E since the chord contains a D Eb and F.
My inclination is to think about the 6 note (hexatonic) scale made of the chord tones. That is, use the chord tones. Some would call it the arp. All fine with me.
Then, to add additional notes by ear, recognizing that the #9 is probably going to be okay in a dominant chord with a b9.
So, that's 7 notes. Let's look at the other 5. E F# A C C#. I covered E, C and C# already. A doesn't work well because we already have Ab and Bb. F# is a problem on a dominant chord. Let me be clear. Any one of them will work in a strong enough line. And, I wish us all luck with that. It's just that some notes are easier than others to make sound good.
What it comes down to is that I find it easier to think of chord tones and the individual notes likely to add something positive. I find it easier than thinking about things like hungarian minor, harmonic major, dim+WT or modes of harmonic minor.
Apparently, other people prefer thinking about those things. But I can get with a note or two of any of them by starting with the 6 chord tones, so I'm not inclined to go with all those different scales by name.
-
Hi !
The best is to learn how to play basslines, I don't mean only arpeggios.
It's the best way to connect the chords, combined with guide notes, it also means inversions, it's the best way I know.
-
Most people are obstinate and will not do what you tell them even if you know what you're talking about. Especially on the internet. What I posted isn't something I think will work, it will work work if you do it. :P But yeah, I agree, the beginning situation of a newb asking the forum is kind of bleak haha. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Then we did him a favour. In my experience I'd say only 2% of rock players will have what it takes to cross over into Jazz. And while it almost amounts to bullying when some of us bombard the poor bastards with a summary of all the things WE think they need to know, I personally feel it's a little disingenuous to say " come on in brother, the water's fine, you know how to float, right? We'll have you swimming in no time..."
-
Well that put the nail in the coffin. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
This prospect (although I don't agree with it) is far scarier to a hopeful beginner than Phrygian dominant.
-
Does anyone play a D (the fifth) in a G7b9b13? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
It should only take a few months to make progress if a guy already knows the guitar, knows the pent shapes and some arps, and gets on the plan I outlined.
-
It's up to them. On a guitar it's probably unnecessary - apart from being difficult, if not impossible, to finger even without the bass G! Originally Posted by garybaldy
It's just a G7alt (G7#5b9). 3x3444.
-
It's also a...joke. Originally Posted by Tal_175
-
In any case the OP has long ago disappeared so we appear to be talking to ourselves. I could put in the weather forecast and it wouldn't make a lot of difference.
-
Yes, that's what I tend to use or xx6867. No root. Originally Posted by ragman1
-
Absolutely. With a D in it, if indeed it were possible, it would probably make the chord sound very muddy.
-
There is also X 10 9 10 9 11 which I use in Stella. Originally Posted by ragman1
Reply With Quote
Moving from bedroom to stage...
Today, 08:38 AM in From The Bandstand