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Haha, every single time a Rocker like yourself who has learned some pent shapes and a few arps comes on here asking for a clue about what to practice to sound like jazz lines against changes, the poor sod is bombarded with a zillion different (and often contradictory) slices of advice. And that is because, as you will find out very soon, there is NO ONE WAY to learn what you seek, and everyone must find his own way. And when we do, we feel our own methods should be good enough for you too!
So I won't join that chorus, because what works for me probably won't work for you. For one thing, what kind of jazz improv against changes are you into? Lenny Breau? Pat Metheny? Sco? Wes? Because each style is totally unique and requires specific tools that need years if not decades practice. That's what I said, decades... Just because it took you 2 years to be gig ready for Rock, blues, country or pop, it's a common mistake to think learning to play Jazz changes should only take a couple more. (Here's a challenge for you, come back to this thread in 2 years and tell me I'm wrong!)
And now here's my good news- once you've figured out your favoured "style", then it can become easy to ignore all the well meaning advice from forum members, books, videos etc that is NOT appropriate for your goals. Even a top tier teacher may be inappropriate for your goals. You can't be a jazz player without a good ear, so you may as well start working on that at the same time as working on your chops. "Now hang on a minute", I hear you say, "I thought you said you wouldn't join the chorus of 'here's what worked for me' ". Well, this advice actually comes from most of the greats, actually, so maybe you should rely on it! Pick up a book like "Thinking In Jazz" by Paul Berliner, you'll see...
Anyway, the idea is to pick up jazz language, the way jazz lines are put together with chromatics so that 85% of the time the chord tones (or intended extensions or alterations) are landing on a downbeat. Typically a mixture of mini arps, "bop" type scales, chromatic fill in notes, enclosures (diatonic and chromatic) and some common idiomatic phrase ideas ("the" lick, honeysuckle lick, etc). But steal the way your favourite players do it, and divide all the ideas you pick up into half bar ideas, full bar, and maybe 2 or even 4 bar ideas. Then make sure you have a bunch of ideas you can use for Tonic Major and it's Dominant, as well as Tonic Minor and it's Dominant. So 4 main types will get you a long way (the other stuff can wait). You should know that alt Dom language is just using Dom material from its minor key over the parallel Major key instead (eg. you can use G7b5#5b9#9 ideas resolving to C maj).
Don't do what I did, which was to spend years on this stuff before I knew what to do with it! Maybe start using the few things you know, and putting them to work. How? Well, that can take years as well, if done thoroughly (like every bona fide Jazz player does BTW), but it basically boils down to joining your "modular" ideas together with smooth voice leading, which means connecting via semitone or a tone. This means you have to adjust the ends of your short modules so they sound good leading into the next module you wish to use. And yes, do this for Tunes! Start with a couple of common ones. It takes years of trial and error, and all the while you are making your own choices which eventually all adds up to being your own "style".
The reason you can rely on this advice and ignore almost everything else (with all due respect to the accomplished and well meaning posters) is because this advice comes from the greats (which took me years to discover my own take on what I think they were doing). In other words, don't do what I (we) did, figure out what the greats did. After all, they invented this whole caper! And good thing they did too, it's one of mankind's greatest art forms!
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03-20-2024 01:26 AM
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I think doing some timing exercises with the arpeggios—trying to connect through chord changes using half notes or quarter notes—then trying to improvise using your own rhythms, or rhythms from a song or solo, then trying to bring in melodic devices like leading tone approach notes or enclosures.
Then learning lots of melodies and simple licks. Lots of fun things you can do to start turning those into vocabulary and working them into tunes.
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These Barney Kessel lessons are pretty interesting:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Really good advice at 7 minutes of the first video.
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For melodic improvisig, you need to transition from chord-by-chord playing to playing over 2-4 bar progressions. to begin with, make Dmi/G7/Cmaj7 *one thing*, not 3 things, in your mental organization.
The big two in bebop are major and minor II->V->I. Another common one is Maj7->Min7. As you learn tunes, observe how often these come up.
More abstractly, the chord-scale approach may tell you what works over what chord, but music requires that you address the *transitions*.
So the skill of playing the "right notes of the moment", while important, is rarely going to sound musical, unless you have static harmony (eg "so what").
For example, one mainstay of bebop is to use a tritone substitution on the dominant V7 of a IImi7-V7-Imaj7, but you rarely hear someone play
tritone subs over a dominant chord that isnt going anywhere. So knowing what notes to play on what chord by itself cannot get you to this part of the jazz language.
Another important melodic idiomatic aspect of (mainstream) jazz is becoming adept at sticking in blues ideas in the midst of diatonic chord movement. Get your ear to accept the sound of a minor pentatonic I over an entire II-V-I, or even the entire A section of tune.
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I find that it helps to have a high level harmonic organization that informs how you approach tunes and the instrument. It's also vital I think to keep the organization simple but without imposing limitations for future expansions. It's good to consistently stick to one organization to get most out of practice sessions. The organization I use pretty simple and it might give an idea of what I mean.
For major harmony (including major blues) I divide the major scale diatonic chords to two families. These families can use a shared vocabulary and substitute for each other when moving chords:
- Tonic major family: Imaj7, IIImin7, VImin7
- Major dominant family: IImin7, IVMaj7, V7, VIImin7b5
Now unfortunately there are three common situations where these families don't provide a very satisfactory solution:
Valt -> Imin
IImin7b5 Valt -> Imin
Secondary dominants of minor chords: V/IImin, V/IIImin, V/VImin.
I use Phrygian dominant (Harmonic minor + b7) to address all these situations (including IImin7b5 V7alt). Let's call it the minor dominant family. I treat the tonic minor as just min6 (dorian). So for the tonic minor the major dominant family works well.
So that's it. It may seem like two scales but I rather see it as 3 harmonic families and the difference is important.
There is one more common situation that needs to be addressed and it is the backdoor dominant: bVII -> I or IVmin bVII -> I
This is also called minor subdominant (referring to the IVmin).
One approach is to use Melodic Minor for IVmin and Lydian dominant for bVII7 (also comes from the same MM). This would add a whole new family. But there is good news. We don't have to. We can use Dorian for IVmin and regular old dominant for bVII7. Dorian works great as the subdominant minor. That is the major dominant family.
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This is good stuff. I also think it might make out OP's head spin...I don't think of this as beginner level organization.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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It could be but the point is if one sets out to learn to play the changes over jazz standards, one needs a plan for how they'll approach various situations that they'll realistically encounter in tunes (even the simple ones). Without that, their practice time won't prepare them for what they want to do. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I also do think that jazz improvisation is in itself an advanced subject. Anyone who wants to tackle it should be willing to raise their levels a bit. That said, simpler yet still reasonably general organizations may exist and it might be good to suggest them, but I do think a high level organization is very useful.
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OK, ditch the Phrygian dominant, use the major dominant family a tritone away from the root of the original dominant.
One scale (two families) to rule all jazz standards.
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Yeah this is the strongest case for a decent teacher Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It’s kind of a bummer but complex theory in jazz usually serves to make the *actual playing* simpler. But the theory is still complex. So it’s still hard for beginners to unlock some of those hacks.Last edited by pamosmusic; 03-20-2024 at 01:31 PM.
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It's so true...though sometimes I'm not sure if figuring out everything is just I and V would have been as big of a realization had I not spent years chasing every change... Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Yeah this is the strongest case for a decent teacher
It’s kind of a bummer but complex theory in jazz usually serves to make the *actual playing* simpler. But the theory is still complex. So it’s still not hard for beginners to unlock some of those hacks.
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I just edited my above post because I obviously meant that it still *is* hard for beginners to unlock some of those things Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
oops
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You know, I knew that was what you meant so that's what I read it as.
And it has inspired a new thread idea.
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Phrygian Dominant? I don't know a scale by that name, the so-called "altered scale" is commonly used for altered IIm-V7 chords. It's the melodic minor scale 1/2 step up from the V7 chord.
Example: Over A7 = Bb melodic minor: Bb-C-Db(C#)-Eb-F-G-A (b9, #9, b5, #5)
Learning to sight sing helps one play what one hears, that is, learning to read and sing a score/lead sheet without your instrument, and you could visualize where those notes are on the guitar - use a pitch pipe or harmonica for orientation.
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Gory detail warning!
I didn't want to get into this but I suggested the Phrygian dominant because it is conceptually simpler than the altered scale when it comes to minor ii-V. All of the chord tones of a minor ii-V are in the Phrygian dominant scale. If alt dominant is used, the two chords are typically split into two scales (II Locrian #2 and Valt or VII7 and Valt).
Also the #4 in the altered scale is melodically difficult to handle (it also often involves position shifts on guitar).Last edited by Tal_175; 03-20-2024 at 02:40 PM.
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Tal_175, I'm saying I don't know to what scale you're referring when you say phrygian dominant (I may call it something else). Could you please spell it out?
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It's the fifth mode of harmonic minor, aka V7b9b13. For example in Dmin7b5 G7alt Cmin progression, G7 can be G Phrygian dominant. It is the same scale as C harmonic minor. The reason I avoided calling it that is because you typically don't play this scale over the actual C minor chord. It's played over Dmin7b5 and G7b9b13 which are both diatonic to the scale (unlike the G altered scale). Originally Posted by Mick-7
Phrygian dominant scale - Wikipedia
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Well, I'm shocked to find a scale I don't know! (that is, that application of it)
But it is the so-called Japanese scale but missing one note:
D-Eb--G-Ab-B-C = C Harmonic minor w/o 3rd (F)
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In C minor, it would be from the G Originally Posted by Mick-7
G7b9
G Ab B C D Eb F G
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Oh good lord. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Find me a thread in this forum that doesn't off topic sooner or later.
But I agree, it's easy for theory to become a distraction for newer players... or older ones for that matter - KISS.
For that reason, I will not allow Tal_175 to encourage me to talk about scales like these, which you're liable to hear on John McLaughlin Shakti records.
Over Dm7b5/G7b9b13
Ab Marwa That:
Ab-A-C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab
A Todi That:
A-Bb-C-Eb-E-F-G#-A
On the other hand, if you are beginning sitar player, you will find them useful.
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Welcome to the forum and thanks for the question! I remember being at the stage you've described, and in many ways I'm still there. So since there's already a lot of very valuable advice here, I'd like to just add another bit to that, and then underscore a point already made by others. Originally Posted by jamiehenderson1993
Context might be worth considering, IMHO. What do you want to do with this thing called jazz? Do you aspire to being a professional musician, doing gigs, solo shows, being in a band and playing out, making recordings, teaching, etc? Or perhaps you'd like to play at home just for the fun of it, or with friends or at jam sessions, to experience a little piece of the joy and wonder of spontaneous musical creation (i.e. improvisation), and maybe becoming a part of a local music scene (jazz is, after all, a social music) that is itself part of a well established tradition?
Along with such questions, it might be worth reflecting on your preferences in terms of styles, favorite players, etc. Is it Bebop that you want to grasp, or groove on some Hard Bop, or get into Fusion, or old timey Swing, etc? Jazz is a pretty big, old and diverse world. This is worth at least a little reflection, since how we answer such questions can inform how we might pick and choose what is suitable to the goal and how to approach that in terms of the available time. It's not always necessary to do everything all at once.
And to underscore what's been said above by others, learning tunes (i.e. the melody and changes) in light of the above and then listening to how others play around with those tunes (i.e. improvising) helps to get the sounds into your ears. For example, I'm a casual player who does it mostly for fun. I love exploring the melodies and changes of the old standards, at home or with others, and also to get down once in a while on a Blues/Gospel inflected Hard Bop groove. So I begin by picking a tune. While transcribing is important, to get started I just get a lead sheet or two from the books commonly used in my social scene. Then, I pick ten recorded versions of the tune as done by others. They don't need to all be definitive versions, it can be at random from different eras and on different instruments, and at different levels, just to get some sense of how a tune can be approached, and getting those sounds into my ears. And then I explore putting those two together--the melody/changes and listening to various interpretations--trying to get some of that under my fingers in the practice room, focusing at first on the melody. And since my ultimate goal is going out to local jam sessions to join my peers and seniors to play for fun, I find a venue that holds open jams, or join a circle of friends, and start playing those tunes in situ.
Thanks again for asking, and I wish you all the best on your quest!
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For what it's worth ... Kreisberg all over C harmonic minor to play the Ab-G7 bars in Night and Day. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Last edited by pamosmusic; 03-20-2024 at 05:48 PM.
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It sounds like a fairly simple technical question is in here, ......and I'm a really simple guy Originally Posted by jamiehenderson1993
You know the "big arpeggio shapes", break them down into smaller shapes. I like 4 notes, (helps me follow the degrees) one octave. Grab a progression = ii-V-I ? and a comfortable place on the neck and play through it. As I do I pay attention to which degrees of the chord are where, and how they move to the next chord = the b7 of the ii moves to the 3rd of V, ...just kind of a sus thing ?? .... things like that.
This type of work tends to give me a framework to use when I'm listening, trying to cop things. It works mechanically and with my ear,... I may recognize an interval.
The more you play through it, the more you naturally expand, pay attention to what those new things are,...especially the good ones
..next thing you know, you'll be into #5 and b9 ..... and won't even know "why" -LOL- that's what these other guys are for ....
I don't know the Ligon book, but feeling mechanical sounds like a natural phase. Work through it man, I'm pullin for ya.
As for the "professors" sounding off in these threads; I actually like it. It's one of the charms of this place. There's a lot of good info in there,... I'll never understand half of it, that's on me, it's there anytime.
-Cheers,
Mike
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OP, choose a simple tune, ie, Lady Be Good or All of Me. Play the head, then start a second chorus with a different chord tone and move your new melody in the opposite direction of the actual melody, ie, up for All of Me or down for Lady Be Good. You have two good tool sets, your arpeggios and pentatonic knowledge, so make a new melody with them. Listen to yourself, or record yourself. Make a new idea and play more.
Then play more and begin to search for more interesting notes and rhythms. Don’t give up. No notes will be harmed in this effort.
good luck and have fun.
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