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I like the bootlegs from that tour. In Trane I hear someone that's getting bored with 'business as usual.' I'd venture to say he wasn't all that happy with how Miles was playing either.
Originally Posted by James W
It's interesting to hear Trane getting the biggest applause for solos where he's clearly chaffing against the constraints of something like Green Dolphin for EG. You can almost hear Wynton and Paul: "what the fk are we supposed to do with that?" The Europeans were adventurous and open minded. I bet it bugged Miles to no end that some audiences loved what Trane was doing and showed it.
I'm thinking of one cut in particular where he starts playing around with a dim 5th interval, kinda imitating one of those old sirens. He starts going there and and folks are hooting encouragement. So he keeps at it.
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02-25-2024 04:22 PM
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Probably going to steal that. Originally Posted by John A.
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I'm currently working on a progession which has some tricky ascending and descending chromatic movement going on and, over time, working with trial and error, I suddenly "saw" a floating blues line which fit. Kinda. One bar/measure is minor and the next is major, followed by a bit of sweet and sour. I'm gradually working this into a solo which, at the end of the day, will end up being a mini composition. I will likely post it here when I'm done.
Now, if someone just handed me this progression (even though I made it up!), on the fly, I would surely just outline the chords and add a few embellishments.
So there's that.
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I think I hear the melody of the tune in my head as I'm improvising.
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So you get it but you're just arguing over terminology? Good lord. So what would you call it, then? Originally Posted by James W
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Vibes, baby. Vibes. Originally Posted by ragman1
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So is the issue his statement or your ability to understand it? Perhaps it's a difference in learning style. I had no problem understanding what he meant by "the spirit of the song." Originally Posted by James W
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Both
And, are you playing the key of the song or the chord of the moment?
Answer: both
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I've already answered this, more than once on this thread. You ought to already know what I'm going to say. Originally Posted by ragman1
But anyway, one last time: when I inquired what was meant by the vague and wishy-washy term 'spirit of the song' you and John A gave answers that made reference to concrete, specific reality so I actually knew what he and you were on about. So cut out the vague and hazy terms and go straight to the specific and practical ones. Because, for example, if someone says they want you to play Stella and the only info they give you is to play the spirit of the song, what does that mean? What tempo do you take it at, given the variety of tempi jazz musicians have taken this tune at? I would need that info rather than the 'playing the spirit of the song' which if not totally meaningless, goes without saying anyway.
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Im a late starter,Born young in an old world..Erik Satie quote....how the hell do i catch up with you guys..Band in a Box to the rescue..i cycle the transcriptions,Wes one day,Herb,Tal next and so on.indebted to the transcribers and the transcriptions,quite a respectable soloist now..tabs first but notation catching up...
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Excellent. Originally Posted by James W
It began to dawn on me that you thought that was all I was saying. Unfortunately, I never said it.Because, for example, if someone says they want you to play Stella and the only info they give you is to play the spirit of the song, what does that mean? What tempo do you take it at, given the variety of tempi jazz musicians have taken this tune at? I would need that info rather than the 'playing the spirit of the song' which if not totally meaningless, goes without saying anyway.This whole discussion is about whether one plays the song or the changes, right? It's the thread title. I'm saying what playing the song means and why, without that, it only amounts to covering a series of chords.
'Obviously the feeling of the whole thing isn't the only factor, as I said before. You need the musical skills to convey the feel. I'm not saying getting the feel of it is the only factor. That would definitely be hopelessly vague!'
That was, and is, my answer to the thread and it's far from meaningless. Obviously you need all the info you can get about the tune too. No one is denying that. You couldn't play the damn thing otherwise!
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Your response to the thread which I took issue with was the following: Originally Posted by ragman1
I took issue with it for the reasons I've already stated more than once. You arbitrarily assert that playing the song doesn't mean embellishing the melody, which is twaddle - that is a perfectly acceptable technique - and contrast it with something you call 'playing the spirit of the song' which is vague to the point of being meaningless, so I pressed you on what you meant by it, and I discovered in your subsequent posts that all you meant was really obvious stuff. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Okay maybe things I do to play the spirit of the song … in no particular order
1. tempo lines up right
2. Time feel … what is the groove and where is the beat.
3. Playing very specific changes based on common versions.
4. Generalize the changes so that I know where the big signposts of the form are and how to get at them.
5. Learn the melody
6. mine the melody for melodic material I can use to play the changes
and I use 3 less and less now
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If it wasn't super obvious already, I would call this just playing the song. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I think you're over-analysing it or something. Of course playing and embellishing the melody is an acceptable way to improvise, no one's disputing that. I wasn't excluding those things or, indeed, any other way of improvising. My point was that improvising with the feel of the tune, whatever it might be, in mind while one's doing it is good. If you don't like the word spirit then use something else, it's all the same. Originally Posted by James W
Bearing in mind, of course, that it's quite possible to play the tune, embellish the tune, and make one's own improv without any feel for the thing at all. That's been my whole shtick all along. You may dismiss it as 'obvious', in fact I think you have, but it's not that easy to do effectively. One really has to know the tune, understand it, and be able to translate it into music. And I'm not saying I'm the world's best either.
As a matter of interest, and I'm not buttering you up, I don't think that's your problem. I've heard you play some lovely stuff and I remember saying so at the time. Your problem was always timing and syncing. How are you getting on with that, by the way? I hope it's working out. To hear you play your lines all in time would be a real treat.
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Melody is king? Maybe, but does it have to be the original melody? I love chord progressions more than I like the heads to most tunes (although some are wonderful). In a chord progression we hear at least 4 melody outlines at once, and a lot more if we allow the voice leading to jump lanes.
I mean even the Bop cats got sick of referencing the head to tunes like I Got friggin' Rhythm or Cherokee. Drop the needle in the middle of Koko and tell me you hear the head to Cherokee. I don't even think I hear the "spirit" of the original head!
...
(yeah yeah, it's a contrafact, so why can't all our solos reference some imaginary contrafact, instead of the original melody?)
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Well, first off, be careful who you're trying to catch up to. Originally Posted by voxo
Then for mistakes I made that I wish I didn't.
- Turn off the chord highlight on band in the box and use your ears and count in your head to track the changes. That's going to help you a lot when you play with other people.
- Learn the major scale across the neck and take it through 12 keys, this is a 5-10 minute warmup. Set a timer and get as far as you can then move on. Don't fall into a scale trap like I did.
- Play with other people as soon as possible. If you can play Blue Bossa, Autumn Leaves and a blues head, go to a jam.
- When you're at the jam write down what other people call and learn those tunes. Everyone and their mom has a list of essential tunes, but the tunes people in your area play are the tunes you need to know.
- If you fall in love with an obscure tune, make a chart and bring it to the jam/sesson.
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This is a great topic.... most amateurs approach this subject in somewhat the way it seems to be going.
But maybe think... how many ways can I play the same tune. By that I mean... Take a couple tunes... easy and standard tunes... A bop and a swing standard... say Moose and TWNBAY.
Rhythm changes ... AABA and There Will Never..... ABAC. Play them both in a Latin or Brazilian style.... The changes and the melody need to be adjusted as well as the rhythm etc. Where I'm going is... What is the song? There are many versions of the same tune.
At a gig yesterday.... we also took a simple tune, St Thomas and played it as a AABA in the style of a Bop tune... like Scrapple. Was a little weird... playing in "C"... But audience loved it.
Also played TWNBAY as a Bossa... So sure the melody was basically the same, well kind of... but the rhythm and harmony changed to fit the style.
Again where I'm going is.... playing Jazz is not memorize and play back. When you play tunes it's not one way or another... As I've always said.... tunes fit into "Forms" and have a "Style" reference... Melodies, Changes and Rhythms change depending on.... Forms and styles.
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I think it was Sonny Rollins who said, when improvising, he always returned now and again to the melody to remind himself, and presumably the listener, where they all were.
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James, it seems like you're being snarky and dismissive of the opinions of some people who are a lot further along on the journey of playing jazz than you are. Maybe consider that when someone like pamosmusic (who actually performs and teaches professionally) talks about the spirit of a song he's saying something people at his level understand without having to have it spelled out. He can play it in a way that knowledgeable listeners will get. People who play this music and/or listen to it seriously know the songs, often know the lyrics, often know a multitude of versions, often know the plots of the musicals or movies they come from, etc. The term is vague to you because of where you are in your journey, but if a serious player talks about the spirit of Stella, I have a good sense of what s/he is talking about. Originally Posted by James W
Basically, research, explore, and play tunes. A lot. You will perceive a sense of them beyond the nuts and bolts of just playing without mistakes.
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For what it’s worth I don’t think James was being snarky at me in particular. Originally Posted by John A.
Also for what it’s worth, I don’t mind a little snark here and there.
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Still my favorite inexpensive tuner.
Joking over. Back to topic.
Reg, though as nebulous and zen as ever, brings up an important topic...style. There are expectations...and I do think that needs to figure in to the whole picture.
So basically, the jazz player is juggling a lot of things...a lot.
Which makes me think there is a way to spell it out more clearly...sort of a hierarchy of "knowing" a tune...maybe yet another thread...
There's that most basic level of being able to get through...I think that's when you know the way the music works well enough that you can see a chart, look at the chords, and pull together something decent (and in style) on the fly. Or maybe that's not so basic. I'd encounter this a lot when I was playing with some Django-style cats...folks would use charts, and I wasn't as familiar with the repertoire as some...plus every song was titled "Swing" plus a word or a number. But looking at the box grids I could play the chords and pull off a solo because the tunes were pretty simple and I had enough of the style internalized to be "passable."
Of course, passable is never the goal...
I think you can step up from here, then...do you know the melody? The words? Can you play the tune in different keys? Styles? All ofthis adds up and away from just following the chords.
Then there's the "Do we ever really KNOW a tune?" question...
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Originally Posted by John A.
John, you're being pompous and patronising. If you must know, I've had a few lessons with Peter and just this afternoon, after a holiday, have returned to transcribing his Billie's Bounce video. I am not sure why you think I am so low down in the hierarchy on this forum that I need to be told things like Peter plays in a way knowledgeable listeners get. Yes, Peter's happening, but should that mean that I shouldn't take issue with invoking the 'spirit' of a song a term which in and of itself is vague and nebulous? I don't think so. Whenever people have explained what they mean when they say 'spirit of the song' it's seems to be either obvious and/or practical stuff for learning songs whose connection to the term 'spirit' is tenuous at best.
So thanks for vouchsafing the advice (I really needed it) and for dragging this argument out further.
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I rest my case. Originally Posted by James W
John, you're being pompous and patronising. If you must know, I've had a few lessons with Peter and just this afternoon, after a holiday, have returned to transcribing his Billie's Bounce video. I am not sure why you think I am so low down in the hierarchy on this forum that I need to be told things like Peter plays in a way knowledgeable listeners get. Yes, Peter's happening, but should that mean that I shouldn't take issue with invoking the 'spirit' of a song a term which in and of itself is vague and nebulous? I don't think so. Whenever people have explained what they mean when they say 'spirit of the song' it's seems to be either obvious and/or practical stuff for learning songs whose connection to the term 'spirit' is tenuous at best.
So thanks for vouchsafing the advice (I really needed it) and for dragging this argument out further.
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You keep repeating yourself. Despite a ton of posts explaining it, not only from me, you're still repeating what you said in the first place. There's nothing nebulous about it. It's an ordinary English expression and it absolutely has meaning in this context. Originally Posted by James W
Yes, it's true that it's one of those things that can't really be reduced to dry fact but that's no excuse. If you tried to describe what a banana or lemon tastes like to someone who's never tasted them I doubt if you'd ever succeed. But you can't say those particular flavours are nebulous or wishy-washy or anything else. They exist, it's a fact.
So, as I said at the start, you either get it or you don't. And apparently you don't even though you say you do.
But why are you getting so annoyed with it? That's what interests me. Do you object to anything that sounds connected with religion or spirituality (whatever that means)? Are you an avowed atheist? Do words like spirit stick in your throat? I wouldn't know, do tell me.
You keep saying you only want concrete concepts, like knowing the key and the tempo of a tune. Obviously one needs those things, that goes without saying. But they are simply necessary, they won't by themselves make for good improvisation. What makes for good improvisation is knowing the song, having a feeling for the song, and having the necessary skills to produce something meaningful musically, that's all.
Some of that can be taught, in fact most of it can, but there's the other factor can't be taught and that comes from the player himself. Personally, I find it extremely hard to play tunes I can't relate to. That may be the case for most of us, I wouldn't know.
You'll say you know all this, I'm waiting for it! But, if you really do, why are we having this discussion? There's no question you're putting up a wall against something. The question is what and why.
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