VOICE-MOTION: Melodic Movement within three-part Harmony

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, I'm into this. Now that I'm studying big band rhythm jazz guitar I'm looking for exactly this. Grips to get me through a sheet.

Well, if it's truly big band rhythm guitar I think those sheets I posted at the end of the "Month of Rhythm Guitar" thread are pretty much everything you might need...

[Navdeep_Singh]

My friend Tim Fitzgerald is a great player, who has written a book on Wes transcriptions. Check out this little chord solo that is basically Wes. he just posted it today right now. It’s all grips, and it sounds great. It’s also BH 101

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[pamosmusic]

Well, if it's truly big band rhythm guitar I think those sheets I posted at the end of the "Month of Rhythm Guitar" thread are pretty much everything you might need...

Yeah if it's a big band gig, I usually just play shells. I usually treat the super extended chords on there like the arranger just telling me what the band is playing. He doesn't need me to play an Ab9(#11,b13) or whatever ... that's just what the band is playing.

[Christian Miller]

I think it'd be a good idea for a "non-drop must know jazz chord grip" thread...

Like the 736(13)R 13th chord voicing on the inner strings...man I love that one

That’s good crunchy boy. I like that one.


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[Christian Miller]

Yeah that’s actually something I’ve found particularly useful.

I hate playing drop 2s … I don’t mind the sound but I have chronic wrist stuff that I have to really keep in check and the drop 2s ALWAYS aggravate it eventually.

Do a lot of the time what I do is play drop 2s with the tenor voice removed.** It covers the same string sets as the shell voicings so it’s super useful for bass motion when I’m playing duo or something. But for two inversions I’m dropping either the third or the seventh so they can sound a little dull if I’m just comping … but they work quite well w the Barry stuff because the idea is motion. So if one voicing doesn’t have the third, the next one will, so the cumulative result is nice and colorful even if each individual chord is not.

** in a sixth diminished scale, this amounts to a spread triad in first inversion.

Barry did say once late on he was working more in three voices….

Incomplete voicings are big and clever


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[Christian Miller]

(Imagine my amazement when I found baroque continuo players play shell voicings too…)

@Tal175 Yes, and sorry to bore on but the overlaps between Barry’s harmonic approach and c18 thoroughbass/partimento have been remarked upon by others such as isaac Raz who points out that the scale of chords is a kind of rule of the octave.

(According to Isaac, Barry said on hearing a young partimento trained student ‘everything she is playing is correct.’)

Both are primarily contrapuntal approaches that aren’t really concerned with the labelling of harmonies and specific chord functions (as in c19 German music theory.)

I see and hear Barry’s harmonic world as very influenced by Romantic harmony. The b6/dim7 sound always make me think of Brahms. I know Chopin was very important to Barry. He saw jazz as a development of the European tradition in America. Which is not to say Barry didn’t sound modern (he often did) but there’s a very strong feeling of being rooted in old style harmony.

I didn’t hear Barry talk about Debussy or Ravel myself, but maybe others did? I would tend to stereotype his harmony as being less colouristic, but I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate.

(Ethan Iverson identified Barry’s use of dim7s as the key distinguishing factor against the more modal post bop style in his obituary.)

For more modal/post-modal harmony Mick Goodrick’s cycles have a similar quality, I find them most compelling for non tertial harmonies atm.

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[A. Kingstone]

Christian: It's posts like these that make me urge you to write The Incomplete Punter's Guide to Harmonic Development.

I'm serious. You have an insight and appreciation of the development of music and an easy writing style.

Of course the fact that you esteem Barry's teachings tilts the court.

Alan

[pcjazz]

Yeah if it's a big band gig, I usually just play shells. I usually treat the super extended chords on there like the arranger just telling me what the band is playing. He doesn't need me to play an Ab9(#11,b13) or whatever ... that's just what the band is playing.

Exactly. And it tells you what notes to avoid playing so as not to clash with the altered extensions.

[Christian Miller]

Christian: It's posts like these that make me urge you to write The Incomplete Punter's Guide to Harmonic Development.

I'm serious. You have an insight and appreciation of the development of music and an easy writing style.

Of course the fact that you esteem Barry's teachings tilts the court.

Alan

Thanks Allan. I know that because of my Blatant Inability to Ever Finish Anything issues, I’d need to start with something short and straightforward. Im thinking of doing a short practical ebook and going from there…


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[pamosmusic]

My copy of this book just came in the mail

[pamosmusic]

My copy of this book just came in the mail

Having read through the introductory parts and looked through a bunch of the examples, this is super cool. It’s kind of like an inverted voiceleading almanac. Instead of “this chord to this chord requires this voiceleading,” it’s more like “this chord with this voiceleading takes you to this chord” … which is actually kind of enlightening and interesting to think about.

and it also seems like the kind of thing that a person could come back to a bunch of times and find applications for just about anything.

A good example … the various motions seem immediately applicable to borrowing notes in the stuff I’ve been working on from Alan’s sixth diminshed book. I love finding things that have all those sort of implied applications. So that’ll be fun.

[Christian Miller]

Instead of “this chord to this chord requires this voiceleading,” it’s more like “this chord with this voiceleading takes you to this chord” … which is actually kind of enlightening and interesting to think about.

Oh I should like it then

[Tal_175]

Is the interview still happening?

[Navdeep_Singh]

One good thing about this book is even practicing a few exercises reenforces fingerboard knowledge, note and interval location and instantaneous retrieval of the same. The point of playing freely and contemporaneously is, in part, a function of instantaneous note and interval retrieval.

[pamosmusic]

The point of playing freely and contemporaneously is, in part, a function of instantaneous note and interval retrieval.

Say more about this.

Im not even sure I have a question. Just interested and don’t quite follow.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Say more about this.

Im not even sure I have a question. Just interested and don’t quite follow.

For example-not referring the book, but learning to play I-VI7-ii-V7-I in double stops on two consecutive strings. I thought about these movements, and now they have become instant without thinking to me.

You know that the C is the 8th fret,high E, . You know that the next highest E below C is on the 5th fret of the 2nd string. Play those two notes: E-C: that’s your I chord.

Move up from the C a half step to C#. Find the tritone below that, the G on the 8th fret of the 2nd string. G and C# are the 7th and 3rd (the guide tones) of A7, the VI7 chord in the key of C.

Now move back to the C from that C# and move from the G on the 2nd string the F. F and C are the 3rd and 7th of Dm7-the ii chord.
Now move the C down a half step to B, keep the F. That’s the 3rd and 7th of G7, the V7 chord.
Now move the F down a half step to E, keep the B. E and B, the third and 7th of C.

I practiced this movement everywhere and learned it, and now I use it all the time without thinking. A great way to play I-Vi7-ii-V7-I as dyads on two successive strings.

Small voicings, smaller movements, different chord qualities. Learning them everywhere on the instrument.

Two notes that form P5 or P4: guide tones for major and minor chords.
Two notes a tritone apart: always the guide tones for dominant chords.
A note and the M3 below it: always a Major chord in the form of 3rd and R.

[pamosmusic]

For example-not referring the book, but learning to play I-VI7-ii-V7-I in double stops on two consecutive strings. I thought about these movements, and now they have become instant without thinking to me.

You know that the C is the 8th fret,high E, . You know that the next highest E below C is on the 5th fret of the 2nd string. Play those two notes: E-C: that’s your I chord.

Move up from the C a half step to C#. Find the tritone below that, the G on the 8th fret of the 2nd string. G and C# are the 7th and 3rd (the guide tones) of A7, the VI7 chord in the key of C.

Now move back to the C from that C# and move from the G on the 2nd string the F. F and C are the 3rd and 7th of Dm7-the ii chord.
Now move the C down a half step to B, keep the F. That’s the 3rd and 7th of G7, the V7 chord.
Now move the F down a half step to E, keep the B. E and B, the third and 7th of C.

I practiced this movement everywhere and learned it, and now I use it all the time without thinking. A great way to play I-Vi7-ii-V7-I as dyads on two successive strings.

Small voicings, smaller movements, different chord qualities. Learning them everywhere on the instrument.

Two notes that form P5 or P4: guide tones for major and minor chords.
Two notes a tritone apart: always the guide tones for dominant chords.
A note and the M3 below it: always a Major chord in the form of 3rd and R.

ah okay. With you now.

Yeah I think there’s some inherent value — given you have the time, I guess — to working on something that forces you into things that force you to got through that assimilation and internalization all over again. The process itself means you know the instrument better after a few weeks doing it.

[Liarspoker]

Trying to kill a few birds with one stone here.

The challenge for the MGH Patreon was to write something using Hungarian Minor for 8 bars.

There's a descending intro then I go into triads with melodic motion. I also tried writing something using galant schemata but it didn't work out (sorry Christian!).

If anyone has an examples of what they are working on from the Voice Motion book please feel free to post

[Liarspoker]

Is the interview still happening?

Yes, unfortunately Johannes has been ill so the interview will occur when he is feeling better. Hopefully next week.

[Liarspoker]

Ok, I wrote a little review of the book this morning. Hopefully it will help someone make their decision whether or not to buy the book.

Voice Motion: Melodic Motion Within Three-Part Harmony by Johannes Haage - Modern Guitar Harmony

[mr. beaumont]

This book continues to intrigue me, so I sat down and wrote out a few permutations, and played through them.

Cool sounds...could I ever really master this and work it into my playing? Would it even compliment what I'm trying to do?

I'm not sure, but I ordered a copy. There's something about the thoughtfulness and thoroughness and elegance of the diagrams that makes me want to support it's author. And whether or not it finds it's way in to my playing, I find simply going through an exercise available on the sample pages to be pleasing in process.

[mr. beaumont]

And here's what a few minutes of dicking around netted me. Maybe worth looking deeper...

[pamosmusic]

And here's what a few minutes of dicking around netted me. Maybe worth looking deeper...

Hey!

Thats beautiful. Very cool.

[pamosmusic]

This is spread triads through some sixth diminished thing. Voice motion so far only in the lower voice.

Stella.

The time gets a bit janky in the middle.

[Liarspoker]

Mr B and Peter - Cool stuff!!

Imagine what a year of practising this stuff as part of a balanced practice routine would do.

It will seep into your playing slowly but surely