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Outlines for jazz improvisation, in all keys Sheet music for Piano (Solo) Easy | Musescore.com
I jammed with someone recently who said he'd been heavily influenced by Bert Ligon's 3 main outlines. He sounded perfectly legit, text book perfect, but as you'd guess, also rather predictable and a bit boring. He'd learned many of the example lines and to his credit has created his own lines based on these learnings, but hitting the 3rd on every single freakin' V chord, and way too much 7-3 resolutions in 2-5-1's was just too vanilla for me, and I like vanilla!
Sure, I understand that many of the greats from the bebop age also did a lot of this, but there's no reason to restrict one self to these narrow guidelines. What I've tried to do for many years is to mainly target 3, 5, 7, 9 and 13, and for V7alt, 3, 7, b9 and b13. But even that is too restrictive. With enclosures over the bar line, any other note is also fair game if it resolves soon after. It still all sounds like Bop to me
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I appreciate that Ligon, Bergonzi etc have helped people to acquire some Bop language far better than Levine and the whole CST thing, but would-be learners perhaps should be warned that too much time can be spent on these solid, yet limited "methods". I'd have to say the same about BH (sorry!). And I know that there are post grad ways of incorporating ideas from all these guys that can keep one busy for life, but I'd wager that most don't get that far. Maybe there are other books out there that have a fresh take on creating bop lines that are not (yet) well known. Have you guys come across any?
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01-08-2024 08:57 AM
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I agree with what you're saying about Ligon's stuff, but I don't think it was intended to be slavishly adhered to, for the reasons you mention. I think being able to target those vanilla notes is an important skill, even if you then go onto do something different. I'm not sure Levine is about creating bop lines as such, is it? (I only have his theory book).
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I don't have Bert Ligon's 3 outlines, I have his 'Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony book.
Surely, it can't be difficult to add other extensions based upon these Bert Ligon's 3 outlines.
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I think that the Bert Ligon method (and others) are meant to be a starting point. A method of understanding if you will.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Outlines for jazz improvisation, in all keys Sheet music for Piano (Solo) Easy | Musescore.com
I jammed with someone recently who said he'd been heavily influenced by Bert Ligon's 3 main outlines. He sounded perfectly legit, text book perfect, but as you'd guess, also rather predictable and a bit boring. He'd learned many of the example lines and to his credit has created his own lines based on these learnings, but hitting the 3rd on every single freakin' V chord, and way too much 7-3 resolutions in 2-5-1's was just too vanilla for me, and I like vanilla!
Sure, I understand that many of the greats from the bebop age also did a lot of this, but there's no reason to restrict one self to these narrow guidelines. What I've tried to do for many years is to mainly target 3, 5, 7, 9 and 13, and for V7alt, 3, 7, b9 and b13. But even that is too restrictive. With enclosures over the bar line, any other note is also fair game if it resolves soon after. It still all sounds like Bop to me.
I appreciate that Ligon, Bergonzi etc have helped people to acquire some Bop language far better than Levine and the whole CST thing, but would-be learners perhaps should be warned that too much time can be spent on these solid, yet limited "methods". I'd have to say the same about BH (sorry!). And I know that there are post grad ways of incorporating ideas from all these guys that can keep one busy for life, but I'd wager that most don't get that far. Maybe there are other books out there that have a fresh take on creating bop lines that are not (yet) well known. Have you guys come across any?
I don’t think the intention is to “hit the 3rd on every single freakin’ V chord”.
My favourite part of his book is towards the end where he incorporates his outlines into standards.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You would think so, I mean as far as training wheels go, its a pretty damn fine book. Did he do a follow up that had more variations? I can't recall, but does the end of the book suggest that students explore this? Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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I have Ligon's Comprehensive Technique For Jazz Musicians. There is a chapter on the three outlines, and a chapter on extensions. The three outlines were only ever meant to be just one out of several or more of jazz musician's bag of techniques. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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No, I don't think Levine was about that, but I remember looking through that book when starting out and expecting that it would... Originally Posted by James W
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Haha, you'd hope not. Just weird to hear someone who sounded like he invested years into doing just that... Originally Posted by Doublea A
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BTW, apparently Bert plays guitar as well as he plays piano, is that true? It would be pretty interesting to hear how he incorporates his stuff differently (or not?) on both instruments. Are there audio clips of his playing?
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I studied with Bert for years. He definitely did not think of the outlines as the end all be all, but more a platform for beginning to be able to outline harmony in your playing. These are just the basic level as he suggests, and can be modified, shifted rhythmically, displaced, chromatically altered etc. Hearing him play you would not be able to spot the outlines in their basic form of 3rd on every downbeat as described above...
And yes, he is a killer guitar player in addition to piano.
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Sure, I just hope that students of that particular book have a pathway to the more advanced stuff. You'd expect that you'd make your own, but maybe some people would prefer that it was mapped out for them - in vols II, III, IV, V etc... Originally Posted by Paulie2
I'm sure he was a great teacher, so you obviously heard him play both instruments, would you say he played similar lines on both?
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
There are hundreds and hundreds of variations mapped out in the Connecting Chords book that are more complex, but yes he was also big on making your own, transcribing for language, etc. Outlines are not what you are supposed to play solely over any ii-V, just a way to start to address harmonic and rhythmic specificity when you want to utilize it. In fact when I was starting if I relied on them too much he would let me know that I was being too predictable.
He definitely has similar language and ideas on both, but due to the nature of each plays slightly different. Somethings just lay better on piano than guitar and vice versa
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I'm quite curious to hear examples, can you point to recorded examples of him playing each instrument? Originally Posted by Paulie2
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I don't have any specifically, but I am sure there are some on Youtube, likely on USC's channel for faculty performances or the SC Jazz Masterworks YouTube. I know there is a burnin' version of Cherokee on there somewhere.
One thing I wish I recorded (but didn't seem appropriate at the time since it wasn't a public performance and I was not going to interrupt to ask) was watching him casually play a few tunes with Peter Bernstein as a duo after a clinic while some of us were left just hanging out. I'd love to have a copy of that
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This sounds like a good example for the 'bad habits' thread and is the type of 'habit' I was referring too related to my own development. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I.e. something learned that has a lot of value as in relates to one's solo construction development, but when they become habitual becomes a bad-habit.
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We're all on a journey wherein we find the balance between our own limitations and the limitations of our teachings. You heard the limitations of someone who, I'll assume, is far from mastery, or even the realization of his own ear, not even mentioning his own voice. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I dare say that what you hear is not the limitation of the methods or teachings of Ligon (who I deeply respect and know to have a very comprehensive theoretical vision) but the experiments of one student trying out ideas and dedicating himself to them until he can actually hear the things he's playing and the whys and not just the hows of this very idiosyncratic and complex music we call jazz.
It's what I call the 16 year old teenage girl make up syndrome: Fascination. Discovery. Experimentation. Over-application. Shameless abuse. THEN learning moderation and taste.
We all gotta go through it. In the end, it's our ear that creates the filter by which we become music makers.
You won't find ANYONE who is an accomplished musician who isn't constantly finding new things that redefine the music, and discarding the things that become perceived as limitations. It's just that when they're playing at that level, you're not aware of their "limiting habits".
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The problem, I think, is also that many people undertake to work their way through the book without a teacher. Some students seems to want, and expect, all the answers to be in a single book. What they think will take months turns into years of trying to master challenges set out in a book, at the expense of many other things they perhaps could/should be practicing to be a better rounded Jazz musician.
This is where a good teacher will be sure the student doesn't overdo something. If the impressionable learner buys a book of Jazz chords and is convinced they need to memorize 1000 chord shapes - that's years, if not wasted entirely, certainly misspent. Same goes for Scale and Mode books etc. People will read reviews saying that Bert's Connecting book is one of the best methods of understanding how to develop vocab that makes the changes, and it probably is. But if you're going to devote an entire book to the 7-3-7-3 thing, then remind the student early on that there is another 5 volumes to come that explore some other connections.
Or better still, only have a few chapters with the all important 3 main connecting lines, then explore other connections with the rest of the volume. It's just weird that after all these years, there exists no single Jazz improv method book that seems to contain just the right amount of all the essential core stuff. Not saying there shouldn't be specialist books (1000 essential jazz patterns you NEED to know!) where the student wishes to go deeper in a particular direction, just a good basic primer that covers theory, harmony, voicings, jazz language development and improvising to changes.
I'm sure many on this forum could put together this kind of book, or are they already out there and just not coming up on the first google search page?
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Hey Prince..
Personally... the vanilla thing is just not being able to expand simple harmony. Taking single chords and implying chord patterns that still imply the tonal targets with harmonic organization.
The embellishment approach, which is how I was taught and played as a kid, is designed with single harmonic references. All the embellishments tools, ornaments, trills, grace, mordents, appoggiaturas or added notes, turns or enclosures , ghosts, even chromatic added or decorative notes all have references...
Expanding the harmony will help get some color....(there are many choices of color) into melodic embellishment. Obviously rhythmic and added or decorative embellishment also helps, but the harmonic reference also need relationships.
I'm not really a great improviser... it's just not really my thing. I like working in rhythm sections and making soloist sound better...LOL
Simple example is use of melodic Subs, with harmonic organization. Then expand the subs...into chord patterns. All those vanilla melodic developments will sound different.
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Reg, you're talking in secret code again, I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by: Originally Posted by Reg
"implying chord patterns that still imply the tonal targets with harmonic organization"
"Expanding the harmony ... into melodic embellishment"
"the harmonic reference also need relationships"
"Simple example is use of melodic Subs, with harmonic organization"
If you're trying to make me feel stupid, then congratulations!
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Uh oh. princeplanet, might I ask how long you've been playing and if you can generalize, what is your thought process when you approach a tune? Maybe it's a matter of difference in what it is that we want to do and our perception of the things we're working with. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Reg, you're talking in secret code again
If you're trying to make me feel stupid, then congratulations!
At the risk of this turning into a much longer thread, I'd really like to take a look at the different ways we look at the soloing process. I get what Reg is saying, it seems clear to me, but I'll also point out that for many years in playing guitar, it was a secret code to me too.
Can we talk about this disparity? -for selfish reasons too- 'cuz I'd love to be able to put my finger on why so many music lovers wind up throwing their hands up and giving up. Improvisation has many levels and considerations at each level.
What is it that is in the landscape of a piece when you start an improvisation and what's in your toolbox to transform that landscape into something that is yours? ...if I can ask such a general question...
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I don't know that there could ever be a book of "how to". And at the same time there are literally millions of those books, each written by each individual who has worked his or her way out of the same paper bag; the bag of possibilities. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Did Sidney Bechet have the same book as David Binney? Is someone who passed all the courses at a big music school better equipped to find their own voice than a player who is motivated by a simple sense of melody, an intuitive and second nature sense of order and a lot of love for playing? Is learning to solo a linear process? Are there things everyone must know, and who's concensus is it that determines that?
Every student I teach has a different and unique set of abilities and balancing a well developed ear, a sense of harmonic progression, a sense of phrasing and story telling, sense of time, the sway of the music we love, -it's all different and learning someone else's priorities is taking on the personality and ordering of another person. In a way of music where the end goal is realization of yourself, spending too much time on another person's vision is time consuming.
There was a time when "THE" book was Walter Piston's Harmony or Vincent Persichetti's Modern Harmony and time spent on the bandstand or big band or working group to shape the ideas into a sound. That was a common MO in the old school. It's a different world now, although Piston and Persichetti and Toch are still there with me. That's my own book.
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Decades, but only 15 years or so of targeting chord tones and extensions via a number of devices, using many of the tools of embellishment that Reg mentions in the part of his post I do understand : Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
"All the embellishments tools, ornaments, trills, grace, mordents, appoggiaturas or added notes, turns or enclosures , ghosts, even chromatic added or decorative notes "
Can I ask if you can explain what Reg means in the rest of his post?
namely:
"implying chord patterns that still imply the tonal targets with harmonic organization"
"Expanding the harmony ... into melodic embellishment"
"the harmonic reference also need relationships"
"Simple example is use of melodic Subs, with harmonic organization"
some specific examples would probably help, thanks.
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My understanding of what Reg means with this junk is usually something along the lines of implying other chord changes over the existing form. Softly as in a Morning sunrise for example … a soloist might imply G7 to Ab7 or something like that and live in that dominant zone for the entire A section. That sort of thing. Or using a different tonal framework for a minor chord than just “Dorian” … which leaves you with a whole other palette of upper structures from which to expand or whatever. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Decades, but only 15 years or so of targeting chord tones and extensions via a number of devices, using many of the tools of embellishment that Reg mentions in the part of his post I do understand :
"All the embellishments tools, ornaments, trills, grace, mordents, appoggiaturas or added notes, turns or enclosures , ghosts, even chromatic added or decorative notes "
Can I ask if you can explain what Reg means in the rest of his post?
namely:
"implying chord patterns that still imply the tonal targets with harmonic organization"
"Expanding the harmony ... into melodic embellishment"
"the harmonic reference also need relationships"
"Simple example is use of melodic Subs, with harmonic organization"
some specific examples would probably help, thanks.
The sort of things soloists do all the time. Though I could be totally wrong because his phrasing is never particularly clear to me either.
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Dave came to my studio recently while he was on tour and from the way he responded to what we were listening to (early Herbie IIRC), it's obvious that Bop was Lingua Franca for him prior to his own unique divergent path. And that's all I'm saying, there could be better single volume method books that serve to introduce Bop as the requisite entry level language, regardless of where the student's interest in Jazz resides, whether it's Swing or post post post modern... Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Well, if it's as basic as that, then it's probably just a communication thing ... Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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