Bert Ligon's 3 outlines too limiting?

[Tal_175]

I think what Reg means is applications of back cycling, modal interchange and functional substitutions using chord patterns. The reason it's sometimes hard to understand his pharising of these devices is because he is not talking about applying them individually, but using them simultaneously.

So you can apply modal interchange to a functional substitution and back cycle from that. Back cycling is another way of saying making something a tonal target.

Well, that's my understanding anyways.

[pamosmusic]

I think what Reg means is applications of back cycling, modal interchange and functional substitutions using chord patterns. The reason it's sometimes hard to understand his pharising of these devices is because he is not talking about applying them individually, but using them simultaneously.

So you can apply modal interchange to a functional substitution and back cycle from that. Back cycling is another way of saying making something a tonal target.

Well, that's my understanding anyways.

Nah what you’re saying makes sense. And is kind of the logical extension of what I’m talking about. As soon as you get off the page, there are loads of ways to start moving through a form toward a point of resolution.

Barry Harris’s phrasing of that idea would be the idea of “playing movements, not changes.”

[Christian Miller]

Aha.

Substitute/superimposed chord progressions.

The operative thing is hearing in forward motion to the resolution harmony. So long as you do that you can do what you want.

Big problem for most learners is they haven’t developed the ability to hear ‘ahead’ they play reactively to the harmony rather than driving it. This sense can be built up step by step though.

I always liked the term ‘invisible pathways’

[Jimmy blue note]

Well, if it's as basic as that, then it's probably just a communication thing ...

One of the ways of ordering your own line craft is to think of the essential elements of a melody, or as I was taught, the bone structure. This is where ideas like scale, scale fragments, chord tones, passing notes, wide and narrow leaps between notes of a scale come in. Each of these has its own sound and it's a solid foundation to play with these in a simple form to internalize their sound without thinking about it.
Then there are many different type of ornaments that are applied to a line to create accents, displace a beat or strong note, change direction of a line and so on. These are like the foliage or landscaping along the highway, they inform the shape of your essential line and make it very elegant, ornate, personal or individually distinctive. Below are some common ornaments that are commonly used ones that have long been part of the classical toolbox:

Jazz has its own vocabulary for many of these ideas: enclosures, phrase members, upper neighbors, lower neighbors, but the idea is kin-ornament the note of weight, highlight an idea with supporting notes.
Add to this the elements of rhythm, swing, anticipation ( extending a phrase from the measure before), syncopation, rests that shift the note of weight into or against the beat, and you can have much more melodic control of your phrase craft.
It's a more molecular approach than taking another person's lines fully intact and lifting them.

As I said, it's just one way of looking at soloing. Plenty of people don't look at things but it is a good way to internalize and then play melody in a personal way.

I think that's what Reg was getting at. That's why I asked what your own approach to phrasing was about. Just creating some dialogue about possibilities. Ain't it what it's about?

[pamosmusic]

I think that's what Reg was getting at. That's why I asked what your own approach to phrasing was about. Just creating some dialogue about possibilities. Ain't it what it's about?

I would tend to think the way you describe here. To my ear, pretty advanced harmony sounds kind of boring without this kind of melodic decoration … and with it, pretty straight ahead harmony sounds bright and alive.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think this is what reg means. I feel like I’ve heard reg say that he never plays “unorganized chromatic notes.” Which honestly is another term of his I’m not sure I fully understand, but in context it sounded like he was saying his non diatonic notes always have some harmonic implication. Which—if that’s what he meant at the time—would be pretty odd to me.

Not to mention that trying to interpret these posts second hand is probably a little bit silly.

[princeplanet]

I would tend to think the way you describe here. To my ear, pretty advanced harmony sounds kind of boring without this kind of melodic decoration … and with it, pretty straight ahead harmony sounds bright and alive.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think this is what reg means. I feel like I’ve heard reg say that he never plays “unorganized chromatic notes.” Which honestly is another term of his I’m not sure I fully understand, but in context it sounded like he was saying his non diatonic notes always have some harmonic implication. Which—if that’s what he meant at the time—would be pretty odd to me.

Not to mention that trying to interpret these posts second hand is probably a little bit silly.

Hmm, glad it's not just me that gets confused by Reg's explanations. Maybe we should start a thread where we ask Reg to explain - in language that even I can understand - what he means when he speaks of harmonic references/organisation/relationships etc, particularly in regard to the expanded ways of dealing with non diatonic, chromatic or blue note additions. Paging Reg...?

[Christian Miller]

One of the ways of ordering your own line craft is to think of the essential elements of a melody, or as I was taught, the bone structure. This is where ideas like scale, scale fragments, chord tones, passing notes, wide and narrow leaps between notes of a scale come in. Each of these has its own sound and it's a solid foundation to play with these in a simple form to internalize their sound without thinking about it.
Then there are many different type of ornaments that are applied to a line to create accents, displace a beat or strong note, change direction of a line and so on. These are like the foliage or landscaping along the highway, they inform the shape of your essential line and make it very elegant, ornate, personal or individually distinctive. Below are some common ornaments that are commonly used ones that have long been part of the classical toolbox:

Jazz has its own vocabulary for many of these ideas: enclosures, phrase members, upper neighbors, lower neighbors, but the idea is kin-ornament the note of weight, highlight an idea with supporting notes.
Add to this the elements of rhythm, swing, anticipation ( extending a phrase from the measure before), syncopation, rests that shift the note of weight into or against the beat, and you can have much more melodic control of your phrase craft.
It's a more molecular approach than taking another person's lines fully intact and lifting them.

As I said, it's just one way of looking at soloing. Plenty of people don't look at things but it is a good way to internalize and then play melody in a personal way.

I think that's what Reg was getting at. That's why I asked what your own approach to phrasing was about. Just creating some dialogue about possibilities. Ain't it what it's about?

in historical improvisation they talk about ‘diminutions.’ For example, here’s a page from Durante (1684-1755) on what to play on a 7-1 bass motion.



these are, well, licks. Hal Leonard’s 100 Galant Hot Licks or whatever.

Or vocabulary if you are posh I suppose.

This molecule thing reminds me of something Scott Henderson said - never lift something more than 8 notes long (I paraphrase.)

[pamosmusic]

Hmm, glad it's not just me that gets confused by Reg's explanations. Maybe we should start a thread where we ask Reg to explain - in language that even I can understand - what he means when he speaks of harmonic references/organisation/relationships etc, particularly in regard to the expanded ways of dealing with non diatonic, chromatic or blue note additions. Paging Reg...?

Pretty sure this thread has existed several times in the past.

[princeplanet]

...

... Hal Leonard’s 100 Galant Hot Licks ...

Damn, I don't have that one

[princeplanet]

Pretty sure this thread has existed several times in the past.

So, did we learn anything?

[pamosmusic]

So, did we learn anything?

Based on this thread I would guess not?

[pamosmusic]

Damn, I don't have that one

I had a browser window opened to Google this when it occurred to me that it was not real.

@HalLeonard … would absolutely buy.

[princeplanet]

I had a browser window opened to Google this when it occurred to me that it was not real.

@HalLeonard … would absolutely buy.

Haha, may Christian could throw a volume together over a lazy weekend?...

[princeplanet]

... never lift something more than 8 notes long (I paraphrase.)

Me, I never lift anything more than 8kg ( that's what roadies are for )

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Hmm, glad it's not just me that gets confused by Reg's explanations. Maybe we should start a thread where we ask Reg to explain - in language that even I can understand - what he means when he speaks of harmonic references/organisation/relationships etc, particularly in regard to the expanded ways of dealing with non diatonic, chromatic or blue note additions. Paging Reg...?

This has been asked often. And then someone will chime in and point to Reg's YT channel ...

[pamosmusic]

This has been asked often. And then someone will chime in and point to Reg's YT channel ...

… and yet ….

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

One of the ways of ordering your own line craft is to think of the essential elements of a melody, or as I was taught, the bone structure. This is where ideas like scale, scale fragments, chord tones, passing notes, wide and narrow leaps between notes of a scale come in. Each of these has its own sound and it's a solid foundation to play with these in a simple form to internalize their sound without thinking about it.
Then there are many different type of ornaments that are applied to a line to create accents, displace a beat or strong note, change direction of a line and so on. These are like the foliage or landscaping along the highway, they inform the shape of your essential line and make it very elegant, ornate, personal or individually distinctive. Below are some common ornaments that are commonly used ones that have long been part of the classical toolbox:

Jazz has its own vocabulary for many of these ideas: enclosures, phrase members, upper neighbors, lower neighbors, but the idea is kin-ornament the note of weight, highlight an idea with supporting notes.
Add to this the elements of rhythm, swing, anticipation ( extending a phrase from the measure before), syncopation, rests that shift the note of weight into or against the beat, and you can have much more melodic control of your phrase craft.
It's a more molecular approach than taking another person's lines fully intact and lifting them.

As I said, it's just one way of looking at soloing. Plenty of people don't look at things but it is a good way to internalize and then play melody in a personal way.

I think that's what Reg was getting at. That's why I asked what your own approach to phrasing was about. Just creating some dialogue about possibilities. Ain't it what it's about?

Aren't there differences between baroque ornaments and classical ornaments?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

… and yet ….

And now someone will say we are unfriendly and off-putting ... and should be black-listed ...

[pamosmusic]

And now someone will say we are unfriendly and off-putting ... and should be black-listed ...

Well they wouldn’t necessarily be wrong.

[Christian Miller]

Damn, I don't have that one

It’s a little lacking in blues

[Christian Miller]

I had a browser window opened to Google this when it occurred to me that it was not real.

@HalLeonard … would absolutely buy.

there ya go. plenty of licks in here
https://partimenti.org/partimenti/co..._diminuiti.pdf
basslines to cut and paste them into as well

here it is being done nicely for guitar

[Jimmy blue note]

Aren't there differences between baroque ornaments and classical ornaments?

Quite right. Classical ornaments are quite similar to what we think of as traditional ornaments.
During the Rococco and Baroque, things were quite different.
Every Christmas, it was not only a matter of pride, but city status to create the most elaborate ornaments for the tree that was brought to the city square. Bremen trees, Weimar trees, Arnstadt trees, Mülhausen trees... and then there the Liepzig trees. These were enormous affairs and they even hired the city music meister to compose music for these incidental affairs.
Bach famously wrote one for each day of advent, each more ornamental than the last, but they all had one thing in common: A period of rest between the two halves of the work. Because of the delicate work of transporting and hanging the amazing glass ornaments to the boughs of the tree, JS thought it prudent to incorporate a break mid day. These rest and replenishment breaks took on a life of their own wherein all the townspeople sang and danced, exchanged gifts, and in their own way tried to out-do one another with the festive feasting they brought to the table.
After a while, these mid day meals Bach had initiated became as famous as the tree ceremonies.

This is the origin of the Baroque ornaments and the Bach's lunch.