I think improvisation is overrated

[joelf]

Joel...As I said... I love your stories. And respect all you've done and still do. I'm also old and have the same musical philosophy about reaching the audience... still do.

But I also have always enjoyed... raising the level of performance for the respect of the Music.

I'm pretty sure you have a ton of musical understandings etc... I don't think it's that complicated to understand what improvisation with respect to Jazz is. The being in their own world thing is tricky.... Is it because you lose the connection with the audience... from not having the skills... to walk and chew gum etc... or is just the audience just wants a simple path etc... anyway

That's why I've always tried to push, (on this forum) ...guitarist to get their technical skills together, at least you can cover the walk and chew gum part...LOL.

Right. I mean if you think you're too deep to play before the common man do everyone a favor and stay home. You know?

Maybe I was disingenuous or copped out about what improvisation is. It's just that if you ask 10 different people you'll get 11 answers, just like 'what is jazz?' Phil Woods used to say that the musicians are their own worst enemies---beboppers against space cats, etc. I don't care about any of that---just want to play what I hear the muse suggests and respond to the sounds around me. And push for more when I'm feeling up for it. Let the critics worry about definitions. They have plenty of room in their minds (or what passes for them) to get into all that shit. We just play, and life doesn't last forever.

Right about raising the level---for everyone, not the least of which yourself.

I remember a sign at elementary school: Man's reach Should Exceed His Grasp. True dat...

[emanresu]

I think impro is not overrated but a good impro is heavily underrated.
Like good music - doesn't happen so often. Yet every 10th piece of anyhting random is pretty good. Or 20th. Meaning - worth listening again sometimes.

Being a fan helps but stumbling on something unexpectedly good is rare.

Since it is "so easy" to improvise, there are craploads of improvisations that are not gonna move almost anyone.

Yet, it is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE work to get really good at improvisation...

The other hand..

and so on.

[RLetson]

Not to beat this to death, but while chasing all things ATTYA, I came across Martin Taylor playing it and then reflecting on what goes into an improvistory performance. I think the answer is "everything."

[emanresu]

I can't be quiet anymore. Taylor's vid. He has such good tone, almost nails the timing when he hints that's the thing he is after.
But it breaks down in so many places. So many.. am I the only one who hears this?
It is not just this vid. Whenever a chord-melody is played (freely), almost always it breaks. In hundred spots.

[emanresu]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be debbiethedowner. But if anyone can bring chord-melody without those hiccups, would win a jackpot. Doable. But overrated.

[rpjazzguitar]

I can't be quiet anymore. Taylor's vid. He has such good tone, almost nails the timing when he hints that's the thing he is after.
But it breaks down in so many places. So many.. am I the only one who hears this?
It is not just this vid. Whenever a chord-melody is played (freely), almost always it breaks. In hundred spots.

I notice when time breaks down and I agree that there's a lot of solo jazz guitar which is not played in strict time. I like the players who can do it in strict time, but right now I can't think of one. Well, Brazilian solo guitarists generally maintain time.

OTOH, Martin Taylor does so much beautifully that I am not inclined to nitpick. That's a remarkable performance.

[emanresu]

The phrases break down while trying to keep the time. Should start a thread for that.

[AllanAllen]

I can't be quiet anymore. Taylor's vid. He has such good tone, almost nails the timing when he hints that's the thing he is after.
But it breaks down in so many places. So many.. am I the only one who hears this?
It is not just this vid. Whenever a chord-melody is played (freely), almost always it breaks. In hundred spots.

That's the style, happens to piano players too. When they spend to much time playing to the internal clock and not to a metronome.

[Woody Sound]

Segovia's opinion was that improvising is not creating. It is just expressing a whim. No real thought or planning behind it. Not my opinion, just passing it on.

[Dean_G]

Damn, so many do's and don'ts, shoulds and shouldn't s. How do you folks play anything? If you are talking about an actual "jazz" audience, that audience at least back in the day were participants in the creative process, rooting for and responding to the players improvisations. An adventure! That's exciting, at least to me and many others. A communal ritual perhaps. How is it overrated? It is the thing. Who is overrating it?
It is high risk music not safe, not always successful. If you can't handle that stay the fuck home with your predictable boring shit.

Happy New Year!

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

That's the style, happens to piano players too. When they spend to much time playing to the internal clock and not to a metronome.

Better to play a lot with a good drummer than to only practice with a metronome.

Which (the latter) does not hurt, yesterday I came across this video of Carol Kaye (and Tristano was a strong advocate of playing with a metronome, gradually reducing the tempo to very slow to become really aware of your shortcomings regarding groove so ou can work on it).

Mastering Groove with Carol Kaye: The Most Recorded Bassist Ever - YouTube

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I can't be quiet anymore. Taylor's vid. He has such good tone, almost nails the timing when he hints that's the thing he is after.
But it breaks down in so many places. So many.. am I the only one who hears this?
It is not just this vid. Whenever a chord-melody is played (freely), almost always it breaks. In hundred spots.

Absolutely with you on this. But Martin Taylor is still in the bearable range for me.

Most people do not pay attention to what you are talking about according to many personal recordings that are posted here. Many folks buy super-expensive archtop guitars and do not give a FCK about groove when they play them. Then I have to switch of. I used to play a lot of funk and reggae at a professional level in another live (professionally musically unfortunately only, financially it was rather semi-professional) and I cannot stand music that is not grooving. And it does not have to be metronomic all the time. But a phrase is a unit that must not fall apart. I became really aware of this after having had the privilege of listening to quite a lot of classical music with people who had studied with the exceptional conductor Sergiu Celibidache (1912-1996).

EDIT: There are of course exceptions to the above said. There are some people here who really know how to play.

[joelf]

Segovia's opinion was that improvising is not creating. It is just expressing a whim. No real thought or planning behind it. Not my opinion, just passing it on.

Totally ridiculous and based in ignorance. Did he bother to even try to understand it, let alone attempt to do it?

No and no. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...

[CliffR]

Most people do not pay attention to what you are talking about according to many personal recordings that are posted here. Many folks buy super-expensive archtop guitars and do not give a FCK about groove when they play them..

You've managed both to disparage the majority of us who post our playing on this forum and to demonstrate a streak of petty jealousy. Did I miss your post where you showed us all how it ought to be done?

[Christian Miller]

Improvisation is where the stark gulf between intellectual and embodied knowledge becomes clear.

[emanresu]

Totally ridiculous and based in ignorance. Did he bother to even try to understand it, let alone attempt to do it?

No and no. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...

Eh, he is dead, so he can't defend.
But whims are good things very often anyway.
Catch a good whim when soloing and you're golden!

[joelf]

Eh, he is dead, so he can't defend.

...And was a 24 carat snob with blinders on when alive. Said of Julian Bream's lute playing 'You can't serve both mistresses'.

At least Bream liked and tried a sort of Djangoesque jazz playing. Would Segovia have deigned to do that? I'm so sick of classical musicians looking down their noses at us. And the few who try jazz often sound clueless. Stay in your lane and don't hate, appreciate!

Segovia was great though. Just take him for what he was, and that does include the elitism...

[Christian Miller]

Segovia was a product of his time and culture.

I must say I don’t find todays classical musicians dismissive of jazz players.

[joelf]

Segovia was a product of his time and culture.

I understand, but that's no excuse.

Creative people are supposed to be more open, and 'think out of the box'. But it doesn't happen often enough. More so a lot cling to dogma, self-segregate by style or clique, and fear then shun the new, the things they won't try to understand. So it becomes a 'me' or 'us vs. them' thing when it needs to be a 'we' thing.

Slonimsky's book The Lexicon of Musical Invective has a delicious chapter: Non-acceptance of the Unfamiliar. He's mostly writing about critics but we all know, or should, that musicians do it too.

Goes on in jazz too, and makes me ill...

[pamosmusic]

I'm so sick of classical musicians looking down their noses at us.

Does this still happen to you?

I was a classical performance major in college and my experience is that classical musicians treat jazz like it’s some incredible magic they could never play and I have to convince them otherwise.

[joelf]

Does this still happen to you?

No, I'm speaking as an observer.

There's a violin teacher where I work who admits she's ignorant of jazz but is intrigued and wants to learn. That's the right attitude...

[pamosmusic]

No, I'm speaking as an observer.

There's a violin teacher where I work who admits she's ignorant of jazz but is intrigued and wants to learn. That's the right attitude...

.

Haha. Observer of what, then?

[Christian Miller]

I understand, but that's no excuse.

Creative people are supposed to be more open, and 'think out of the box'. But it doesn't happen often enough. More so a lot cling to dogma, self-segregate by style or clique, and fear then shun the new, the things they won't try to understand. So it becomes a 'me' or 'us vs. them' thing when it needs to be a 'we' thing.

Slonimsky's book The Lexicon of Musical Invective has a delicious chapter: Non-acceptance of the Unfamiliar. He's mostly writing about critics but we all know, or should, that musicians do it too.

Goes on in jazz too, and makes me ill...

yeah not aiming to excuse Segovia. He WAS a snob.

if you want to see some fine present day examples of that resistance to the new, there’s plenty on JGO. It’s inevitable.

Otoh I don’t think it is takes as much imagination and open mindedness to see the cultural value in jazz today than it did a hundred years ago.

[joelf]

.

Haha. Observer of what, then?

Well, I wasn't looking up women's dresses. You know, with a hidden compact mirror...

[pamosmusic]

yeah not aiming to excuse Segovia. He WAS a snob.

if you want to see some fine present day examples of that resistance to the new, there’s plenty on JGO. It’s inevitable.

Otoh I don’t think it is takes as much imagination and open mindedness to see the cultural value in jazz today than it did a hundred years ago.

It seems like some of the general consensus on Segovia these days is that the snobbiness was kind of defensiveness as well. He was dismissive of metronomic technical players too, and it’s pretty widely accepted that he didn’t play that way because he didn’t have the chops. I can’t remember why he declined to play Aranjuez, but I’ve heard some people say the actual reason was probably that it was a stretch for him technically at the time. Not sure if that’s true.

With Segovia too it’s also worth remembering how much snobbery he had to overcome when he was coming up too.

Not that it excuses it.