I think improvisation is overrated

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

In a letter to me, Joe Pass once said to start playing the melody, then start playing fills in the spaces between the melodic phrases, gradually reducing the melodic phrases until your own stuff dominates, with just enough of the melody in there to keep focused. When I've really kind of focused on that, I've been happier with my playing, though my current ability hardly constitutes a marquis for this approach!

Ornamentation is the Mother of Improvisation?

I think that has been posted here on JGO so often that one more time does not hurt.

Lee Konitz 10-Step Method - PDFCOFFEE.COM

[blackcat]

Pity then that so many members of the public who might otherwise enjoy the melodies consider all improvization to be completely random.

[John A.]

As a listener, I want to be moved. Period.

Sure, but being moved while also knowing (or learning) that the players are improvising adds another layer of appreciation for at least some listeners (I have a lot of direct experience and observation of this)

As a player, I want to be in a nice ‘flow’ where I’m in the moment and play well without thinking.
When players improvise and produce cohesive, exciting stuff on the fly then that is riveting. But it’s rare. Metheny comes to mind.

Maybe I have lower standards for judging cohesiveness and excitement and for being riveted, but I don't find this to be a rare phenomenon at all. I experience being riveted by other people's improvisation a lot.

But I can be moved just as much by a great rock player doing a much-anticipated solo that I know is coming. Or a classical orchestra doing a wonderful rendition of a piece

For the most part I find it disappointing when rock acts play something exactly as it is on the recording. Sometimes it's cool to hear a solo referenced or quoted, but for the most part I'd rather hear people try new stuff. De gustibus yada yada. For classical music, I don't listen to enough live performances to really be able to understand why/whether one is better than another. I just react more intuitively/emotionally so a I can't really compare it to jazz (which I understand much better).

What I’m missing a bit in this discussion is the song. Whether standards or original compositions, there are a bunch of songs on the setlist (though there are jam bands out there that improvise everything for two hours each night). I’m of the sort where I feel I’m there to serve the song, not the other way around. The song is sacred. The whole band taking solos on every track is not my idea of fun. It quickly becomes obligatory and stale. Joe Pass was a master of riding that fine line IMHO. He respected the song but brought something fresh and meaningful to it every time.

Yes-ish, and no-ish. I agree that jazz performers should incorporate each song's uniqueness into their improvisation and not just blow without any reference to the song. To the extent they don't that's (again, at least IME) a sign of lesser ability as a soloist, not a flaw in soloing as such. Yes, it can get to be a bit much if everyone takes a long solo on every tune, especially if the solos and don't really do anything. But that's more about how good the soloists are and how aware of the audience and overall performance they are than it is a function of how many band members solo on tunes.

[Christian Miller]

In conclusion good music is good.

[Christian Miller]

Man, I thought teacher-student privilege prevented you from saying this stuff!

haha, except everyone does this

[bako]

Wayne Krantz in his Improvisors OS book said something like this (paraphrase):

Composition provides a guarantee for successful music
Improvisation offers a possibility to create something even more beautiful.

[Alter]

Frankly, I love the improvisational aspect of jazz more than anything. I've watched top groups many times play intricate arrangements where the whole tune is written down for 4-5 minutes, and then when they would start to open it up and do a collective improvisation, or just play a standard and do a thousand things over it, that would be my favorite part!

Jazz improvisation is instant composing and arranging too. And musical interplay at its finest. Pretty much everything is improvised, the way you play the melodies, the chords you choose to play, how you support a soloist, rhythms etc.. There's just no end to it..

[joelf]

A alter Kacker trinkt a Glaserl Tee.

I found out that Yiddish is easy to understand for a Bavarian after once Youtube's autoplay algorithm had forwarded me to sad songs like My Yiddish Momme and My Shtetele Beltz while I had fallen asleep.

Cuz what is Yiddish but bastardized German? Mixed in with equally bastardized bits of other dialects from whence my people were kicked in and out of.

The long stay and pogroms have to be worth some damn thing...

[joelf]

Pity then that so many members of the public who might otherwise enjoy the melodies consider all improvization to be completely random.

World's 1st criticism of jazz, early 20th Century:

Where's the melody?

[Christian Miller]

Composition provides a guarantee for successful music ….

I don’t know about that haha

[John A.]

Frankly, I love the improvisational aspect of jazz more than anything. I've watched top groups many times play intricate arrangements where the whole tune is written down for 4-5 minutes, and then when they would start to open it up and do a collective improvisation, or just play a standard and do a thousand things over it, that would be my favorite part!

Jazz improvisation is instant composing and arranging too. And musical interplay at its finest. Pretty much everything is improvised, the way you play the melodies, the chords you choose to play, how you support a soloist, rhythms etc.. There's just no end to it..

Exactly.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Cuz what is Yiddish but bastardized German? Mixed in with equally bastardized bits of other dialects from whence my people were kicked in and out of.

The long stay and pogroms have to be worth some damn thing...

It is not bastardized but medieval German which is closer to Southern dialects than to modern "high-level" standard language.

[Skip Ellis]

If you get too far from the melody, I'm gone. I like a tune because of the melody (don't care much for lyrics unless it's Ella, Rosie, Frank or Tony singing them) and if you get away from that, my interest is gone. I guess, at heart, I'm basically a listener in some ways and I want to hear what I like and don't care much for players 'breaking new ground'. I understand that jazz is based on improvisation and I don't mind doing a few choruses after stating the head, but get back there before you lose everyone. I'd venture to say that jazz is just not overly popular because not that many listeners have the experience or knowledge to know what the players are trying to accomplish. I spent the better part of 40+ years playing in dance bands and that's what the average Joe & Jill on the street want to hear. I guess that's why I like the commercial 'pop' stuff that Wes did and the JS stuff off that old Roost Records Van Heusen stuff and even the 60s Tony Mottola albums. I guess that dates me, but then, I am old.

[rpjazzguitar]

I spent some time yesterday listening to Kingfish Ingram, who is terrific.

His solos are clearly melodic, rhythmically interesting, emotionally intense and have a guitar tone that supports the sense of urgency. Just great. You feel something and you have to move your body. Tap a foot, something.

To play a great solo in the jazz idiom, I think you need to be able to do all of that and, in addition, do it with the harmonic adventurousness of jazz.

The soloists I like do all that. Others will make me lose interest, not feel like moving or, worse yet, leave me wondering if a note or line was a clam or art. That doesn't mean that they aren't great - to somebody else's taste.

[AllanAllen]

If you get too far from the melody, I'm gone. I like a tune because of the melody (don't care much for lyrics unless it's Ella, Rosie, Frank or Tony singing them) and if you get away from that, my interest is gone. I guess, at heart, I'm basically a listener in some ways and I want to hear what I like and don't care much for players 'breaking new ground'. I understand that jazz is based on improvisation and I don't mind doing a few choruses after stating the head, but get back there before you lose everyone. I'd venture to say that jazz is just not overly popular because not that many listeners have the experience or knowledge to know what the players are trying to accomplish. I spent the better part of 40+ years playing in dance bands and that's what the average Joe & Jill on the street want to hear. I guess that's why I like the commercial 'pop' stuff that Wes did and the JS stuff off that old Roost Records Van Heusen stuff and even the 60s Tony Mottola albums. I guess that dates me, but then, I am old.

Had to look up Tony Mottola. This is great! Put a smile on my face, and that’s the whole point as far as I care.

[RLetson]

Wonderfully cheesy. Tony could play just about anything--and did. This is the sort of over-produced album that one would pull out to show off a new stereo rig.

Here's my favorite of that kind of LP--my parents got a copy (RCA Record Club), and decades later I chased down a decent copy. I still put it on every so often and enjoy the over-the-top, no-holds-barred arrangements. On this track I hear two guitarists--one classical and one archtop, along with the usual overripe strings and horns. The whole LP is on YouTube, and it takes me back to 1959--though our little suitcase mono record player couldn't do it justice then. (Our Klipsch Cornwalls, on the other hand, really shake the walls.) Apologies for contributing to thread drift, but 'tis the season for nostalgia, innit.

[Jonah]

Ornamentation is the Mother of Improvisation?

I do not think so.
To make ornamentation one needs something to ornament.
though jazz improvization is often connected with this idea.
It is rather variation what you are talking about I think.
Variations can be improvized or composed.

And of course variation can be one of the technical tools to improvize on given material

But the essential conception of improvization is not necessarialy connected with variation or ornamentation.
Improvization is spontaneous creation and it can also be a creation of the whole piece of music, the form itself.
Actually classical improvization (after renaissance at least) is in most cases like this.

I already wrote a few times on the forum..
I am convinced that to get what the improvization is as an essence we should rather focus on the listner's perception and not on the player's intention.
What does the listner in particular context percieve and recognize as improvization and what not? This is what is important becasue this is created by the cultural context and artistic language.

[BradGuitar]

I am convinced that to get what the improvization is as an essence we should rather focus on the listner's perception and not on the player's intention.
What does the listner in particular context percieve and recognize as improvization and what not? This is what is important becasue this is created by the cultural context and artistic language.

I think this is a really interesting point. I’ve been lucky enough to see both Juliet Lage and Jonathan Kreisberg live this year, two special guitarists and two incredible gigs. But…

I did feel and perceive a difference in their approach to improv. Lage felt incredibly spontaneous, on the edge, in the moment in an almost wanton abandon kind of way.

Kreisberg on the other hand, to me, felt more aware about when and what he was going to play. Considered, but not in a Miles way. Considered as in, I’m gonna start an odd numbered sequence and cycle it through the scale positions kind of considered. Utterly flawless playing mind…

Now, I’m not for one moment saying Kreisberg doesn’t improvise. I don’t think he’s taking a running jump to a sequence or plans on where to put them. I think that in itself is completely in the moment.

Maybe it’s just his “isms” that are very readily apparent and I’m just not familiar enough with Lage’s playing to clock onto the things he leans on when improvising?

Listening to Giant Steps, and the amount of times Coltrane repeats a lot of the phrases from his 1st chorus ( was it Jerry Coker or someone else, counted the 1235 pattern/phrases or summat and listed them?), could it be argued Trane was truly improvising? Depending on one’s answer, does that impact how we perceive everyone we listen to, either positively or negatively moving forwards? Can/should we make allowances?

Is that something that should only land at my door step as the listener interpreting what is being delivered to me on a case by case basis? Interesting…

[joelf]

It is not bastardized but medieval German which is closer to Southern dialects than to modern "high-level" standard language.

Are you telling me that Yiddish is verbatim German?

Very hard to process that...

[Cunamara]

It is all but impossible to play completely freely and without reference to what has come before, there are always cognitive patterns and habits as well as the physical limitations/opportunities of the instrument. Guitar cliches, saxophone cliches, trumpet cliches, etc. We find a few new things, rearrange old things into something different, find a glimpse of some new light. And that's a good gig.

Every so often something really new is brought out: Kind Of Blue, Mingus Ah Um, The Shape of Jazz to Come, Giant Steps, A Love Supreme, My Goal's Beyond.

Kreisberg is my favorite "new" player. Consistently high level playing. Lage is mining a pretty consistent patch of ground for the past 4-5 years, I'm kind of waiting for him to step beyond...

[joelf]

It is all but impossible to play completely freely and without reference to what has come before, there are always cognitive patterns and habits as well as the physical limitations/opportunities of the instrument.

If you think that way you can't. If you don't you can and will.

What if Wes Montgomery had believed that he couldn't play octaves or block chords or only downstrokes with his thumb?
You have to ignore voices in your head and out, focus only on the moment and the possibilities and aim for the fences.

I understand what you're saying, but sorry, there's at the core a defeatism I can't endorse. If you go in expecting, embracing limitations that are self-imposed you will never rise above them.

Go in fresh and keep your ears open to everything around you and you'll get past cliches, 'received wisdom' about an instrument and recitation.

Way past...

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

There’s nothing wrong with improvising off a lead sheet. Things get better once you break away.

You say you had a Bossa Nova duo with a female vocalist. I assume Girl From Ipanema was a regular tune, Did you need a sheet for that? Something you played at every gig?

Yes, but I sang Joao's part (in Portuguese, I know some Portuguese), and she sang Astrud's part (in English)
My solo was arranged, which I didn't need music for.

There are some 20 songs I have memorized, and that is one of them, but I my memory banks can't hold much more.

Can you get through a blues without a sheet? I’m really interested in this. If you can’t internalize a song it makes sense you can’t improvise.

Not for a 1/4/5 type blues, but we didn't do blues.

I have found, when you get to gigging, single note lines are less important than comping. You comp a lot and you need to be on time and confident. So in a way, I agree with you.

comping I can do.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

Well, I have to agree there are a lot of folks out there who don’t improvise well but are doing it on the bandstand (I am one, except sometimes). I blame modern jazz pedagogy which has obfuscated the core of jazz and tried to replace it with “over chord X play scale A, B or C” mechanisms.

Yeah,. that's about where I am. I'd rather just work out a really nice solo/chord arrangement, like Laurindo Almeida does, than play at that level.

[pamosmusic]

Yknow I have this controversial opinion where I don’t think Giant Steps is that cool.

It just so happens also that I am not good at Giant Steps. So it’s hard to disentangle me not liking it because I don’t like it and me not liking it because it beats me up and leaves me for dead whenever we meet.

So it’s always tough to sort that out when someone says they don’t think improvisation is that cool but also that they struggle with it. Chicken or the egg situation.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

Can anybody name an accomplished jazz musician who cannot improvise in the jazz style?

Laurindo Almeida (RIP), who used to play with Stan Kenton. I went and saw him at the Horton Grand in San Diego, and talked to him about it, he told me 'I don't improvise'. He prefers well arranged pieces. He is classically trained, (as am I).

If you listen to him fronting the MJQ on 'one note samba' (YouTube), no one can doubt his accomplishment on the nylon string guitar.