I think improvisation is overrated

[joelf]

[QUOTE=Christian Miller;1307144]if you want to see some fine present day examples of that resistance to the new, there’s plenty on JGO. It’s inevitable.
[QUOTE] I don't.

Anyway It's not like I'm doing anything new. I don't claim that. I do things that are me---old, new, whatever. Kurt Rosenwinkel is new to me. It's a language alien to what I do and intrigues me.

If people want to resist stuff, let 'em. But to quote Dizzy Gillespie (about the swing guys scared of and trashing bebop) 'What were they gonna do, hide from the sun?'

However 'new' doesn't necessarily mean great or even good. Plenty of flash in the pans came out with stuff that was soon forgotten. When something lasts that means it's valid, even if it's no longer new.

We shouldn't be so quick to judge is all I mean. I've said it numerous times: Keep the door open---but leave a broom next to it, to sweep away the....(And don't pick up that broom too quickly either. Let the thing marinate a while. You may hear it after a while---if you really want to)...

[princeplanet]

.... Keep the door open---but leave a broom next to it....

You may not have coined this phrase, but either way, I like your way with words.

[joelf]

You may not have coined this phrase, but either way, I like your way with words.

I must have a way with words, cuz everyone's always telling me to shut up.

(I'm here through Thursday. Please tip your waitperson)...

[joelf]

Shifting gears: So what about 'quoting'?

The songs quoted are themselves not new. And if a player plays a quote he heard one of his heros play, and in the same spot in his own 'improvisation' that's not improvising, just copying.

But if a quote comes into your mind in spontaneity and you insert it in a solo, to me it is improvising...

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

You've managed both to disparage the majority of us who post our playing on this forum and to demonstrate a streak of petty jealousy. Did I miss your post where you showed us all how it ought to be done?

Sorry if you feel offended. I am a honest person. But at least I have decided not to criticize individual posts of personal recordings on JGO unless someone asks for it.

If you think I am jealous of the archtop owners you are wrong. If I play live I use a Yamaha Pacifica 112SD tele copy I got used rather cheap. I use the cheapest 0.013 to 0.056 set of round-wound strings I can get. I would not mind owning an archtop but I simply cannot afford it ATM. And that's OK. I rather play good music on a cheap instrument than bad music on an expensive instrument.

And I am my own toughest critic. I did not feel it was worth to post my mediocre jazz playing here so far. But after four years of hard work (at least two hours of daily practice ATM) the jazz thing is slowly coming. And I will post some things soon. And I do not want to fish for compliments but I expect you to tear it apart. If you always expect non-violent communication à la Rosenberg you will get nowhere. This was one of my most important lessons in life: Not to become offended by criticism but to seriously look at the content. Is there some truth in it? Something worth working on?

I have played a few hundred shows myself and worked as a lighting tech at a few thousand concerts. I have a high standard of listening. You can look at Spotify or Youtube for my ex-band Les Babacools which I co-founded the band with friends in 1991 and stayed with 10 years. We played big festivals before artists like The Wailers, Jimmy Cliff, Shaggy, Burning Spear, Maceo Parker (who would watch our whole show from backstage), etc. etc. We toured with Fun Loving Criminals twice and with Fishbone once all over Germany. This is where I am coming from and this is where my expectations regarding groove and phrasing come from. And I have been actively listening to jazz for the last 35 years.

Play your music and have fun playing it, which is the most important thing. But do not expect me to dig everybody's playing.

[Christian Miller]

Shifting gears: So what about 'quoting'?

The songs quoted are themselves not new. And if a player plays a quote he heard one of his heros play, and in the same spot in his own 'improvisation' that's not improvising, just copying.

But if a quote comes into your mind in spontaneity and you insert it in a solo, to me it is improvising...

I think it’s big and clever

actually you could build a whole approach to playing jazz just using quotes. Sometimes I wonder if that’s what Bird did and we just haven’t been able to track down where all the quotes come from….

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I think it’s big and clever

actually you could build a whole approach to playing jazz just using quotes. Sometimes I wonder if that’s what Bird did and we just haven’t been able to track down where all the quotes come from….

If you are let's say Bruce Forman and know 1000+ GASB and jazz standard you have a huge base to quote from. But it works with everything, classical, nursery rhymes, pop.

Great idea to build a whole jazz approach on quotes.

Ever tried to play the first phrase of Green Day's Basket Case over the first two chords of A Train LOL? (You have to adapt some notes to the whole tone scale.)

[Christian Miller]

Sorry if you feel offended. I am a honest person. But at least I have decided not to criticize individual posts of personal recordings on JGO unless someone asks for it.

If you think I am jealous of the archtop owners you are wrong. If I play live I use a Yamaha Pacifica 112SD tele copy I got used rather cheap. I use the cheapest 0.013 to 0.056 set of round-wound strings I can get. I would not mind owning an archtop but I simply cannot afford it ATM. And that's OK. I rather play good music on a cheap instrument than bad music on an expensive instrument.

And I am my own toughest critic. I did not feel it was worth to post my mediocre jazz playing here so far. But after four years of hard work (at least two hours of daily practice ATM) the jazz thing is slowly coming. And I will post some things soon. And I do not want to fish for compliments but I expect you to tear it apart. If you always expect non-violent communication à la Rosenberg you will get nowhere. This was one of my most important lessons in life: Not to become offended by criticism but to seriously look at the content. Is there some truth in it? Something worth working on?

not posting your paying however conveniently removes you from critique.

[AllanAllen]

You've managed both to disparage the majority of us who post our playing on this forum and to demonstrate a streak of petty jealousy. Did I miss your post where you showed us all how it ought to be done?

as far as I know, BopHead has never posted a clip. So, grain of salt and all that.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

as far as I know, BopHead has never posted a clip. So, grain of salt and all that.

I have explained above why.

[...]

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

not posting your paying however conveniently removes you from critique.

As I said. I will post soon. And as I said I will not fish for compliments but expect serious critique.

[Christian Miller]

as far as I know, BopHead has never posted a clip. So, grain of salt and all that.

yeah, I don’t know.

In the past few years I don’t in general critique anything anyone posts unless they are paying me to teach them (or ask specifically) and even then I try to address the underlying cause of the issue rather than just saying ‘your timing sucks’ or whatever.

I might comment to reinforce what I think is a good point. if I recognise something I like then I will comment on it.

as for other pro players famous or not, I realised a few years back that criticising them just makes me look bad tbh. It’s best to try to work towards something I like in my own playing, rather than criticising other musicians for being something other than that. That’s the best way of using my critical listening and aesthetic sense.

Lastly I would say that it’s quite possible to know an awful lot about jazz and not to have applied any of that knowledge. It takes a lot of work, a lot of work to internalise the info in even one TILFBH video for instance.

Recording (and esp videoing) oneself is a fantastic way of finding out whether or not you can actually do that thing that you thought you could do haha.

[pamosmusic]

As I said. I will post soon. And as I said I will not fish for compliments but expect serious critique.

Ah. This is my favorite JGO trope.

For what it’s worth I usually like your comments and don’t really care who posts what.

[pamosmusic]

Lastly I would say that it’s quite possible to know an awful lot about jazz and not to have applied any of that knowledge. It takes a lot of work, a lot of work to internalise the info in even one TILFBH video for instance.

You are not kidding.

One thing that I find happening to myself: I start working on detailed sequences for students and, as I write, I start realizing that I should probably make sure I can do all this stuff too.

Ive had symmetrical scales on my to do list for about a decade and find I never know the simple stuff well enough to feel like I should move on.

[CliffR]

Sorry if you feel offended. I am a honest person. But at least I have decided not to criticize individual posts of personal recordings on JGO unless someone asks for it.

If you think I am jealous of the archtop owners you are wrong. If I play live I use a Yamaha Pacifica 112SD tele copy I got used rather cheap. I use the cheapest 0.013 to 0.056 set of round-wound strings I can get. I would not mind owning an archtop but I simply cannot afford it ATM. And that's OK. I rather play good music on a cheap instrument than bad music on an expensive instrument.

And I am my own toughest critic. I did not feel it was worth to post my mediocre jazz playing here so far. But after four years of hard work (at least two hours of daily practice ATM) the jazz thing is slowly coming. And I will post some things soon. And I do not want to fish for compliments but I expect you to tear it apart. If you always expect non-violent communication à la Rosenberg you will get nowhere. This was one of my most important lessons in life: Not to become offended by criticism but to seriously look at the content. Is there some truth in it? Something worth working on?

I have played a few hundred shows myself and worked as a lighting tech at a few thousand concerts. I have a high standard of listening. You can look at Spotify or Youtube for my ex-band Les Babacools which I co-founded the band with friends in 1991 and stayed with 10 years. We played big festivals before artists like The Wailers, Jimmy Cliff, Shaggy, Burning Spear, Maceo Parker (who would watch our whole show from backstage), etc. etc. We toured with Fun Loving Criminals twice and with Fishbone once all over Germany. This is where I am coming from and this is where my expectations regarding groove and phrasing come from. And I have been actively listening to jazz for the last 35 years.

Play your music and have fun playing it, which is the most important thing. But do not expect me to dig everybody's playing.

You know, "sorry if you feel offended" is pretty much the definition of a non-apology. But in truth, I'm not offended. My playing is that of a struggling newb, and I'm fine with that and know that's the case. Pretty much every post I've made of my playing has included a request for criticism, and I'm grateful to those who've provided feedback. I don't recall you ever providing any. As for 'fishing', if somebody is kind enough to notice an improvement or something in my playing that appeals, it's always a pleasure to hear about it.

There's a wide spectrum of ability of folks on this forum, ranging from relative jazz beginners such as myself to serious professionals. I'm happy to receive notes from any, but only really value those from players who have posted their own stuff so I can gauge how much weight to place on their opinions. This is not to downgrade the thoughts of those who are more or less at the same level as myself. On the contrary, it's extremely valuable to hear the opinions of people in a similar position to me. (It goes without saying I hope that the opinions of experts are also extremely valuable.) Sounds like you and I have spent a similar amount of time learning jazz specifically and perhaps you have more experience prior to that in playing guitar in other genres. Great. Maybe you have constructive things to say to myself and others.

But let's hear you play. Not sure why you think the number of concerts you've worked on lighting lends you any authority. My brother's neighbour used to date Tom Baker, but that doesn't mean I know anything about time travel or Daleks.

Glad to hear though that you consider Martin Taylor 'bearable'.

[AllanAllen]

I have explained above why.

Yeah, I got bored of the thread and skipped past that. It's fine, one day you'll post... or you never will. Maybe you'll blow up and get banned from the forum before it ever happens, that's what usually happens to the vocal guys who never post a clip. They start ranting about how professional they are and how many gigs they do or whatever, or maybe how their friends neighbor is starting a label and they have an exclusive agreement not to post anything at all to social media until the album is finished.

One thing to keep in mind, once you do post, be thankful if you get a like, and even more thankful is anyone at all takes the time to comment. A thread about improv is overrated can go on for 10 pages, but put a clip of yourself in the showcase section and it's met with crickets.

[CliffR]

For what it’s worth I usually like your comments

To be fair, me too. Perhaps I just got out of the wrong side of bed this morning. Or the fun-loving criminals partying upstairs until 5am in the illegal AirBnB sublet got to the better of me.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, I got bored of the thread and skipped past that. It's fine, one day you'll post... or you never will. Maybe you'll blow up and get banned from the forum before it ever happens, that's what usually happens to the vocal guys who never post a clip. They start ranting about how professional they are and how many gigs they do or whatever, or maybe how their friends neighbor is starting a label and they have an exclusive agreement not to post anything at all to social media until the album is finished.

One thing to keep in mind, once you do post, be thankful if you get a like, and even more thankful is anyone at all takes the time to comment. A thread about improv is overrated can go on for 10 pages, but put a clip of yourself in the showcase section and it's met with crickets.

On JGO it does seem sometimes as people would rather look at guitars rather than listen to them being played.

I’m sure that’s just an impression tho.

[joelf]

If anyone critiques me I'll kill 'em


(;

[CliffR]

You're gonna have to figure out how to post a video first Joel . (Hit me up privately if I can help you with this.)

[joelf]

Or the fun-loving criminals partying upstairs until 5am in the illegal AirBnB sublet got to the better of me.

Was there a German Shepard & Shake & Bake bag involved with them?

Inquiring minds...

[joelf]

You're gonna have to figure out how to post a video first Joel .

I actually think I got it nailed, but then there's Schwartz's interpretation of Murphy's Law: 'Murphy was an optimist'.

'They say it's idiot-proof, but I found a way to beat it'---John Eckert...

[joelf]

...and it's met with crickets.

Wow! So Buddy Holly's coming back from the dead?!

AMAZING!!

[lawson-stone]

not posting your paying however conveniently removes you from critique.

Also, there is a difference between constructive criticism and "violent" language (his term). Criticism is simply the intelligent understanding of a product of human intelligence and effort. Criticism can identify and describe what makes something work and delight as much as how the thing flounders or fails. But in no case does it need to be abusive, dismissive, or "violent."

I've posted scores of clips on here, and I'm a solid C+ jazz player at best. I have gotten incredibly helpful comments every time. Many were encouraging, finding the one commendable feature in the whole clip and showing me that I need to build on THAT; but negative remarks identifying my weaknesses have always been civil, even if incisive, and I"ve appreciated it.

We should not fall into false dichotomies that someone there is only sycophancy or "violent" speech. There is a whole world in between of helpful, accurate, constructive criticism.

I think most on this forum have that knack and that's why I post my clips: I want to be better, or at least suck less.

[lawson-stone]

yeah, I don’t know.

In the past few years I don’t in general critique anything anyone posts unless they are paying me to teach them (or ask specifically) and even then I try to address the underlying cause of the issue rather than just saying ‘your timing sucks’ or whatever.

I might comment to reinforce what I think is a good point. if I recognise something I like then I will comment on it.

as for other pro players famous or not, I realised a few years back that criticising them just makes me look bad tbh. It’s best to try to work towards something I like in my own playing, rather than criticising other musicians for being something other than that. That’s the best way of using my critical listening and aesthetic sense.

Lastly I would say that it’s quite possible to know an awful lot about jazz and not to have applied any of that knowledge. It takes a lot of work, a lot of work to internalise the info in even one TILFBH video for instance.

Recording (and esp videoing) oneself is a fantastic way of finding out whether or not you can actually do that thing that you thought you could do haha.

One of my favorite JGO comments is "He types a great solo!"