Another Tonic Minor question...

[princeplanet]

In the other recent thread there was much discussion re practice and/or preference for each of the tonic minor candidates, and as mentioned many times, for many of you the choice is dependant on context. So what if the context is Minor Blues? This includes tunes that also contain ivm(6 or 7) that aren't strictly blues in form.

Upon my limited analysis, it seems some players prefer to play or outline Cm6 rather than a Cm7 sound in a C minor blues, whereas as some like the latter.

Then again some will use one sometimes and then the other. My question is in 2 parts -

1/. What do you think most players do?

2/. What do you find yourself preferring?

I suppose an ancillary question should be about the handling of the raised 7 (in either Harm Min Or MM context). Avoid it? Use it as "bluesy" chromatic passing?

Apologies if this was covered in the other thread ...

[Christian Miller]

yeah I think you are right

I don’t know for certain what most players do because I haven’t transcribed everyone

The gist I get is that broadly you can divide treatment of tonic minor into pre-modal and post-modal, with some overlap between the eras (and even within the player). Other people have mentioned this distinction.

furthermore some players are quite strictly scalic while others are looser and mix it up.

My preference depends on the musical situation I’m in. Tbh I may not always be conscious in the heat of the moment. When I’ve transcribed my own playing for my YouTube channel I’ve often been surprised.

the best way to answer the first question is to transcribe players on minor chords. The best way to answer the second question is to transcribe me haha (I know what I’d prioritise lol.)

The aim is to hear it and play what you hear more than think about it. In practice when comes to minor scales we are only talking about a few very distinctive notes. You should be able to hear a 7 or a 6 as opposed to b6 or b7

[Christian Miller]

Oh I’d add that the tools of analysis that are appropriate to one play may not be to another. Some players are clearly scalic while others focus on chord tones and passing tone and others are more melodic and ‘open.’

seven note scales are not always the best way to analyse someone’s playing.

[ragman1]

/. What do you think most players do?

I don't know. I'd have to listen carefully to, or examine a ton of transcriptions to find that out.

Off the top of my head, I'd say most players - unless the m6 is specified in the progression - incorporate the m6 sound at some point because it's an option and sounds good.

Coltrane in Equinox uses the m6 sound (A#) a lot even though the i chord is C#m7. Same with Shorter in Footprints in Cm (nat A).

2/. What do you find yourself preferring?

I put it in if I sense it needs it. Which is usually true.

I suppose an ancillary question should be about the handling of the raised 7 (in either Harm Min Or MM context). Avoid it? Use it as "bluesy" chromatic passing?

Using the harm m as a scale is one thing and using the raised 7 as a colour note is another.

As a scale it's all a matter of taste. It can be put in over the V chord and sounds pretty good. But just as a colour note I think the 7 is cool :-)

It really is all a matter of context. That's virtually always the answer to general questions.

[Christian Miller]

I don't know. I'd have to listen carefully to, or examine a ton of transcriptions to find that out.

Off the top of my head, I'd say most players - unless the m6 is specified in the progression - incorporate the m6 sound at some point because it's an option and sounds good.

Coltrane in Equinox uses the m6 sound (A#) a lot even though the i chord is C#m7. Same with Shorter in Footprints in Cm (nat A).



I put it in if I sense it needs it. Which is usually true.



Using the harm m as a scale is one thing and using the raised 7 as a colour note is another.

As a scale it's all a matter of taste. It can be put in over the V chord and sounds pretty good. But just as a colour note I think the 7 is cool :-)

It really is all a matter of context. That's virtually always the answer to general questions.

Actually that’s a very good point. The 6th/13th is sometimes described as the ‘avoid note’ over the m7 chord. Actually this is because it ‘gives away the sound of dominant’ in a ii V I.* On a tonic m7, it’s a very common sound. For example, the melody to Recordame.

* (it’s not incorrect, B on a Dm7 in a ii V I in C does tend make the chord sound like a G9. The framing is unhelpful IMO.)

[pamosmusic]

I transcribed most of Mr PC many moons ago and there’s a lot of pentatonic sort of stuff with 1234 and 5. Definitely flat 7. Definitely natural 6 when he uses a six, and occasional mixing of the natural 7, though he doesn’t really emphasize it. Like it’s just part of a big scale run. That kind of thing.

Wes uses a lot of flat seven and natural six but I’ve not gotten real deep in much else.

[ragman1]

Actually that’s a very good point. The 6th/13th is sometimes described as the ‘avoid note’ over the m7 chord. Actually this is because it ‘gives away the sound of dominant’ in a ii V I.* On a tonic m7, it’s a very common sound. For example, the melody to Recordame.

* (it’s not incorrect, B on a Dm7 in a ii V I in C does tend make the chord sound like a G9. The framing is unhelpful IMO.)

I just think it sounds nice in the right place at the right time.

I did one the other day over the Blue Bossa progression. At the end.

(And, if the OP is listening, there are m6 sounds over the Cm and the Fm).

[Reg]

Yea... sometimes I think prince is a backer or has some share in JGF.... or just likes to stir it up.

Anyway.... I've transcribed literally 1000's of tunes and solos last century and still do if I hear something that catches my ear. But generally.... it's not where or what one starts..... How you decide to play the tune.... it's where one takes it, Where you take what you imply by starting tune, intro and head etc...

By that I mean..... what relationships you create and develop with the starting reference, (the minor Reference), and how you develop and expand those Reverence, (the starting Minor Reference(s) and how you harmonically and melodically Develop those Reference and the.... relationships you create with those reference.

Even a simple and beat into the ground tune like Blue Bossa....I mean every time tune gets called there are 5 or 6 different harmonically organized approaches that one could take. Personally I use intros to help set the harmonic table as to how we might play the tune. Where we might go.

For the last few decades.... most players know how to organize harmonically... how they develop Melodically... how they develop solos. You can still use whatever you "feel"...LOL like... but at least use it within a musically organized FORM..... Which simply means.... when you say something musical or at least try to.... try and be organized where in the FORM of the tune you say or play whatever your playing.

Even if you change direction harmonically where your going melodically.... try and give the rest of the ensemble a clue as to how and where your going.

You can also just set up rhythmical organized patterns or use basic strong/weak movement to create.... organized space .... for you to do what's not implied by how your playing the tune or.... what is typical Development of style and musically implied direction of what has been played before.

What happens is the more you choose to use..... the better you need to organize the space your using it within.

If not.... it's almost like you get a reverse result. What you might think or hear as colorful etc... becomes more vanilla. or worse.... mud.

[John A.]

In the other recent thread there was much discussion re practice and/or preference for each of the tonic minor candidates, and as mentioned many times, for many of you the choice is dependant on context. So what if the context is Minor Blues? This includes tunes that also contain ivm(6 or 7) that aren't strictly blues in form.

Upon my limited analysis, it seems some players prefer to play or outline Cm6 rather than a Cm7 sound in a C minor blues, whereas as some like the latter.

Then again some will use one sometimes and then the other. My question is in 2 parts -

1/. What do you think most players do?

I've never thought about it that way or a taken a tally, so I couldn't say. FWIW, minor blues stuff I've actually transposed has tended to be more from the blues world than the jazz world, so Otis Rush or Robben Ford more than Coltrane, and I think in that realm it's probably more minor 7 than minor 6, but again, I haven't counted.

2/. What do you find yourself preferring?

I don't think I prefer one or the other. I guess I'd day that comping I probably tend more toward minor 7, but blowing anything goes.

I suppose an ancillary question should be about the handling of the raised 7 (in either Harm Min Or MM context). Avoid it? Use it as "bluesy" chromatic passing?

Yes. I use it, but I also avoid it.

Apologies if this was covered in the other thread ...

Don't let it happen again. There will be consequences.

[ragman1]

Hello, John, you've been very quiet :-)

[John A.]

Hello, John, you've been very quiet :-)

I've been playing a lot of music, not so quietly.

[princeplanet]

Hello, John, you've been very quiet :-)

He only comes out these days to reprimand me .... Oh, and Reg, WTF you on about with your "backer", "shares in JGF" "stirrer" comments? Tell us what you mean, no need to be so, well, muddy...

[John A.]

He only comes out these days to reprimand me ....

It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.

[princeplanet]

Actually that’s a very good point. The 6th/13th is sometimes described as the ‘avoid note’ over the m7 chord. Actually this is because it ‘gives away the sound of dominant’ in a ii V I....)

Yeah, it's the m6 on both the i and iv that curiously creates the I Dom to IV Dom sound, like in a maj blues. So Cm6 to Fm6 is almost F9(rootless) to Bb9(rootless). It's a strong sound, such that if you started that way, depending on handling, it can sound weird to suddenly switch to Cm7, and especially to throw in the non raised 6th (Ab).

Actually, there's another question, are you OK with flipping between both 6ths? Not in the same bar (or 2), but maybe for the next time the tonic minor comes along?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, it's the m6 on both the i and iv that curiously creates the I Dom to IV Dom sound, like in a maj blues. So Cm6 to Fm6 is almost F9(rootless) to Bb9(rootless). It's a strong sound, such that if you started that way, depending on handling, it can sound weird to suddenly switch to Cm7, and especially to throw in the non raised 6th (Ab).

You can treat the minor as a dominant in this way. With all the fun and games that implies.

Actually, there's another question, are you OK with flipping between both 6ths? Not in the same bar (or 2), but maybe for the next time the tonic minor comes along?

Why not in the same bar? The 6 though is a ‘colour note’ the b6 is more a tense note. There’s tons of lines that use both. Learn how both feel and sound…

In any case, why don’t you transcribe some of your favourite minor lines and talk about what you notice?

[rpjazzguitar]

Reposting:

I've never thought about what others do, or what I do, in those terms.

In minors (dorian, natural, melodic and harmonic) R 2 3 4 5 are the same. Then pick one from b6 and 6. And then pick one from b7 and 7. That gets you all four scales, if you want to think that way.

Or don't pick and use whichever ones you like. These are all distinctive sounds.

What I do is to try to think of a melody and play that. I have no idea if I play more 6 or more b7.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Yea... sometimes I think prince is a backer or has some share in JGF.... or just likes to stir it up.

Anyway.... I've transcribed literally 1000's of tunes and solos last century and still do if I hear something that catches my ear. But generally.... it's not where or what one starts..... How you decide to play the tune.... it's where one takes it, Where you take what you imply by starting tune, intro and head etc...

By that I mean..... what relationships you create and develop with the starting reference, (the minor Reference), and how you develop and expand those Reverence, (the starting Minor Reference(s) and how you harmonically and melodically Develop those Reference and the.... relationships you create with those reference.

Even a simple and beat into the ground tune like Blue Bossa....I mean every time tune gets called there are 5 or 6 different harmonically organized approaches that one could take. Personally I use intros to help set the harmonic table as to how we might play the tune. Where we might go.

For the last few decades.... most players know how to organize harmonically... how they develop Melodically... how they develop solos. You can still use whatever you "feel"...LOL like... but at least use it within a musically organized FORM..... Which simply means.... when you say something musical or at least try to.... try and be organized where in the FORM of the tune you say or play whatever your playing.

Even if you change direction harmonically where your going melodically.... try and give the rest of the ensemble a clue as to how and where your going.

You can also just set up rhythmical organized patterns or use basic strong/weak movement to create.... organized space .... for you to do what's not implied by how your playing the tune or.... what is typical Development of style and musically implied direction of what has been played before.

What happens is the more you choose to use..... the better you need to organize the space your using it within.

If not.... it's almost like you get a reverse result. What you might think or hear as colorful etc... becomes more vanilla. or worse.... mud.

Recently there was one post from you that did not make me think: "I wish his writing and explaining style was a little more vanilla and less muddy". But it was not this one.

Yes, i know, "no time for babysitting" and someone will say "How dare you!" LOL

[pamosmusic]

Recently there was one post from you that did not make me think: "I wish his writing and explaining style was a little more vanilla and less muddy". But it was not this one.

Im not terribly invested either way honestly.

[ragman1]

Yes, i know, "no time for babysitting" and someone will say "How dare you!" LOL

Perhaps this shouldn't be said in public but I think you'll find Reg has certain writing/spelling/expression issues which are a handicap. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, he seems to have developed his own terminology to explain quite simple things, perhaps as a compensation. But that didn't stop him graduating from Berklee, which is to both their credits.

[rpjazzguitar]

Check out Reg523 on youtube. He demonstrates and explains his approach in a number of videos. I think it would be time very well spent for anyone trying to develop their jazz style.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Perhaps this shouldn't be said in public but I think you'll find Reg has certain writing/spelling/expression issues which are a handicap. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, he seems to have developed his own terminology to explain quite simple things, perhaps as a compensation. But that didn't stop him graduating from Berklee, which is to both their credits.

I had never thought there might exist some sort of dyslexia with the letters of the alphabet for someone who can write and read musical notation. If that is the case I have to apologize.

Check out Reg523 on youtube. He demonstrates and explains his approach in a number of videos. I think it would be time very well spent for anyone trying to develop their jazz style.

I have watched several of Reg's videos already a year ago and while I really dig his playing and can hear and see what he is doing I find his explanations and terminology still very over-complicated and confusing. I can only get something out of those videos fingering-wise.