bVII chord as backdoor turnaround and/or functional V7 chord?

[Christian Miller]

As I may have mentioned further up the reply chain, diminished arpeggios are my "get out of jail free card."

Oh dim arpeggios are incredibly useful. They are nothing necessarily to do with dim scales. The are parented by harmonic minor most often. They don’t really teach the old school way to handle dim chords I don’t think? But there’s a very specific way to handle them that you will hear in bop etc. tbh it’s probably because dims are less common in post bop music and often get swapped out for ii V’s and things. (Barry liked them.)

So, on your example, mixolydian b6b9 is a mode of harmonic minor that I use over a dominant sixth chord (i.e. G7b9 > C.)

I’m not sure if understand what you mean by a dominant sixth chord here? It is the classical bebop sound on A7b9 (in C)

Need a better name for this scale, I don’t like any of them in common use. Really it’s minor’s dominant, V if minor. It’s very diatonic rather than some fancy modal application. Because it’s minor scales you can mix it up. That aug 2nd leap is unstylistic sometimes so they tweak the scale.

The way Barry frames this is, use the backdoor dominant scale - Bb7 mixolydian and run down to the third, B, of G7. This gives you the same notes but allows you to apply everything you would to a normal dominant to a minor. So

Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm
decomes
Bb7 G7b9 (Bo7) Cm effectively

This also ensures you have the right emphasis on the scale on the G7b9 chord

It’s like my old granny used to say - life’s too short to practice locrian. At least that’s what I thought she said, I wasn’t listening.

Lately I've been trying to incorporate a more linear approach to add a little more variation and continuity.

Also, I've been exploring the various IV chord possibilities, given my limited frame of reference.

I think what’s missing from these discussions often is how you construct lines… harmony is the background, but the foreground elements are really important.

[Christian Miller]

Abmaj7#5 is not in my immediate future. Not sure what I'd do with a chord like that, given the basic structures I'm able to play (Great American Songbook, some Sonny Rollins heads and simpler "jazz" tunes.) The Bb9sus4 > Cmaj7 seems like its something I've heard from Earth Wind & Fire. As for G7 > Cmaj7, I'd prefer Fmaj/G or, in the alternative, G7altered > Cmaj6.

As for "back cycling" this is a new concept for me. I'm currently reading the thread on it here: How To Practice And Apply Back Cycling On Guitar

I think this is kind of important to get to grips with before anything. I’ve got a video on it, if it helps.

[Reg]

I've been mildly derided elsewhere as a CST guy, which I am. But I'm also a blues guy, which is the foundational linguistics of jazz, R&B and rock 'n' roll. As for analysis, if I didn't value that I wouldn't have started this thread. That said, I've heard some hyper-technical guys who are so far advanced that I couldn't begin to process what they were playing. But on those specific occasions it came across as all head, no heart.

yea... well that's what or where I was trying to go.

So what are your options.... Cmaj is your tonic, I'm just using what you said.

What are your options for deriving a Fmin. chord.

Think On Green dolphin st.... Cmaj to C-7 etc what is that ? Is the C-7 ?

Most think of the C- as a Parallel Min. Or the relative Min. of Ebmaj. then down chromatically etc.


So that analysis reflects the F-7 as being the,
1) diatonic IV- .....chord of Cmin
2) diatonic II- ....chord of relative Maj of C- or Ebmaj.

And yes Bb7 Mixo is the vanilla choice

But very common use for creating a jazz blues is to use Dorian/mixo and MM relationships with II V's for creating very Bluesy melodic and harmonic Development of any "Reference" . In your example... Cmaj7 as Tonic going to Fmin. I mean if you like F-6
Your already have the natural 6th or D there to develop.

I played Inner Urge night before last... and made it blue...LOL. Being heartless is a label I don't get called...

Understanding what one is playing and being able to musically label etc... doesn't always mean the heart can't work with the head.

Vamp on 4 bars of // Cma6/9 / fill / F-9 / Bb13 // What make it have heart and blues feel is all the possible Relationships that can be developed from that simple Reference.

[sgcim]

Abmaj7#5 is not in my immediate future. Not sure what I'd do with a chord like that, given the basic structures I'm able to play (Great American Songbook, some Sonny Rollins heads and simpler "jazz" tunes.) The Bb9sus4 > Cmaj7 seems like its something I've heard from Earth Wind & Fire. As for G7 > Cmaj7, I'd prefer Fmaj/G or, in the alternative, G7altered > Cmaj6.

As for "back cycling" this is a new concept for me. I'm currently reading the thread on it here: How To Practice And Apply Back Cycling On Guitar

To get a taste for AbMaj7+5, listen to the Mike Abene chart written for the Carnegie Hall Jazz Band on "Look For the Silver Lining". He uses it in parallel motion, and wants it played in a "floating feel", according to the guitar part. The second time it's played straight ahead as a contrast; it's like you just stepped out of quicksand.

[buduranus2]

I think this is kind of important to get to grips with before anything. I’ve got a video on it, if it helps.

Christian, thank you for this. I've watched it twice now. There's a lot in there to unpack but I think I may have the basic idea. I'll keep plugging away. Appreciate you!