Inner Urge bridge

[pamosmusic]

So here's one that is a bit strange from the Adam Rogers solo (9:45ish), and I transcribed it myself today (it's definitely in the right key). Not 100% on what's happening here.

Attachment 104291
It ends up in a fairly understandable place (Dmaj7#5 on F#m7b5), but the stuff in the middle is ... interesting.

-We are arpeggiating a G#o, possibly E7 in the first bar here,
- second bar I struggle to 'name that scale' - possibly Gb major bebop (for seem reason) going to a G in the second bar
- and then it's kind of, I don't know, G Locrian bb7/Ab harmonic major (Ab Bb C Db Eb Fb(E) G) for... some reason.

I can't see much logic here TBH. Maybe some has a brain wave?

Lord A Mighty

The Bb7 stuff looks like some constant structure shit. Like that descending by half and whole to Eb and then again to B and then again to (through an Ab, rather than A, though) G … so it’s like some weird major third cycle thing with a 1 2 b3 cell.

I seriously doubt there’s any harmonic reason that stuff is there. More like just a way of getting from A to B with tension in between. You could even maybe see that same thing in the G major with those little three note cells, in that case ascending and with the half step between one and two rather than between two and three — so 1 b2 b3.

You could probably logic your way to some diminshed scale reason for it, but my guess is he’s just thinking OUT and using those constant structures to keep it coherent.

Man. That’s wild.

[pamosmusic]

Sending out the bat signal to Brecker on this one.

[grahambop]

Some exercises here on the last 8 bars which may be of use (I haven’t checked them out myself yet), go to the bottom of the page and click on the red ‘Concert’ link and you will get a concert copy of the pdf:

The Jazz Sax & Improvisation Blog of Saxophonist Bobby Stern - bobbysternjazz.com

[ragman1]

1) are they in concert pitch?
2) did you come by them via some process other than google search?

'So you're not interested in the other three, then?'

That was supposed to be humorous but never mind :-)

I've deleted that post. It was very late at night, or rather early morning, and I've no idea at all what I was playing at. I saw the D maj sig and thought 'Bb' and promptly forgot it. I also wondered why they bothered with a key sig at all but that's something else.

The notes are right (for D maj). I dropped them a tone and what he's doing is basically diatonic so there's no need to redo anything.

The analyses are okay. For Bbm read Abm read G#m, okay over EM7... etc, etc.

I think we'll just forget that one

[ragman1]

Some exercises here on the last 8 bars which may be of use (I haven’t checked them out myself yet), go to the bottom of the page and click on the red ‘Concert’ link and you will get a concert copy of the pdf:

The Jazz Sax & Improvisation Blog of Saxophonist Bobby Stern - bobbysternjazz.com

I've seen that one. His lines are pretty diatonic too, sort of variations on the same thing. Much like Joe Henderson's stuff.

There's also more than one YouTube that says a popular way to play the last eight is to start with C#m pent and just go down chromatically to F#m over the GM7. I've tried it. It's not bad.

Comme ca:

https://josephperkinsmusic.com/wp-co...onic-Trick.pdf

[ragman1]

Maybe some has a brain wave?

More like an aneurism in my case :-)

I'm with panasonic on this one. I think he's just roughly covering the sound of the chords with a lot of chromatics. The F#m7b5 is from A mel m, which is the widely accepted way.

[ragman1]

We're probably all looking for the same thing, some super-cool way of doing the last 8.

Maybe the obvious ways are best in the end.

[Christian Miller]

'So you're not interested in the other three, then?'

That was supposed to be humorous but never mind :-)

I've deleted that post. It was very late at night, or rather early morning, and I've no idea at all what I was playing at. I saw the D maj sig and thought 'Bb' and promptly forgot it. I also wondered why they bothered with a key sig at all but that's something else.

my theory is the chart was originally transcribed in C in a notation software, and transposed for tenor sax. If you select the key sig as C major as opposed to ‘null’ - they are different despite the shared lack of sharps and flats - the software will add in a new key signature appropriate to whatever you transpose it. (At least I think that’s how it works, haven’t checked.)

(in general horn players would rather not have a key sig for non functional tunes as there’s no point, but they tend to be reading beasts.. so….)

The reason why I think it’s Musescore (I wanna say V2) us that the bastard thing would not reliably transpose the chord symbols which would have been a give away. This made it unusable for me for years. I think the latest versions have fixed the issue.

[Christian Miller]

We're probably all looking for the same thing, some super-cool way of doing the last 8.

Maybe the obvious ways are best in the end.

well mostly I was looking for several clear uses of the tetrachord/quadratonic idea i mentioned somewhere above in Adams solo for a video on the subject. However while this does feature, he does rather insist on doing some new cool thing on every chorus.

Wanker.

[ragman1]

This is where I got it from. As I said, I was barely awake so I didn't spot the piano and bass had no sig but the sax was in D. I know all about it, some of the best transcriptions from, say, Carles Margarit, are shoved up a tone. But anyway, nearly all the solo is diatonic arps, etc, etc, so nothing lost really.

As for the Adam Rogers stuff, I salute the sax player for his stamina, going up and down the same chords for that long. But when the guitarist was at it the background disappeared, of course, and only the bass/drums were left so he could probably do what he wanted. I'm not saying he departed from the form, only that it gave him a lot more scope and there's no doubt it was pretty cool sounding.

Frankly, I find it hard to relate to this kind of music. When it goes on too long it becomes, to my ears anyway, just noise. I admire it but don't love it. It obviously needs a lot of technique and focus but where's the heart I ask myself? Sorry, just the way it is.

The flip side is I keep coming back to it and want it to sound interesting when I do it. It's a bit of a nuisance really :-)

[pamosmusic]

I'm with panasonic on this one. I think he's just roughly covering the sound of the chords with a lot of chromatics.

I believe “Panasonic” is me. In which case that’s not quite what I meant.

More like a pedal point kind of thing. Maybe leaving the changes entirely and using those simple structures to carry it through.

Honestly just a total guess though.

[ragman1]

I believe “Panasonic” is me. In which case that’s not quite what I meant.

More like a pedal point kind of thing. Maybe leaving the changes entirely and using those simple structures to carry it through.

Honestly just a total guess though.

Yes, I christened you panasonic in a mad moment :-)

What I was agreeing with was what you said earlier:

I seriously doubt there’s any harmonic reason that stuff is there. More like just a way of getting from A to B with tension in between.

That one seemed to make sense to me and was what I was already thinking.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah the trio setting gives you a lot of freedom. I’m still not sure on why this combination of weird sounding notes and not some other… but it is possible I made some mistakes on the pitches and not all of them are as clear as a transcription might lead one to think. I’ll get around to having another listen at some point.

it does strike me the notes in the Gmaj7 bar are not that far from E altered. If you are going to Am(maj)9 that makes sense.

[Christian Miller]

Hmm well now I’m hearing the Ab and Bb in the Gmaj7 bar as being a ghost note/fumble followed by an A natural.

With this sort of stuff it becomes a question of what it the player actually playing clearly, and the notes you can hear clearly are G C E D# C# which suggests the G whole/half diminished scale. The a natural is consistent with that (if we take the Ab as a hangover from whatever the hell is going on in the previous bar.

Which gives us… Gb major (with an added b6) followed by G whole half then A melodic minor.

Over the chord roots, Bb phrygian/phrygian dominant then chord quality change to Go7(maj7) into the whole half scale then F# locrian #2

actually that makes sense

[grahambop]

I don’t think I’ve seen any transcriptions online of Joe’s solo which are in concert pitch, they are all in tenor sax key (Bb).

Probably because a lot of the stuff he plays on the ‘A’ section is pretty wild and ‘saxophonistic’, would be hard to play it on guitar etc.

Interesting that on the B section he tends to calm down and play much more structured lines, I guess the faster chord movement sort of dictates that a bit.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t think I’ve seen any transcriptions online of Joe’s solo which are in concert pitch, they are all in tenor sax key (Bb).

Probably because a lot of the stuff he plays on the ‘A’ section is pretty wild and ‘saxophonistic’, would be hard to play it on guitar etc.

Interesting that on the B section he tends to calm down and play much more structured lines, I guess the faster chord movement sort of dictates that a bit.

I think that tends be a general rule for tunes like this in general. A lot of post bop things have a slow bit and a fast bit. If you don’t play the fast bit simply at least a bit noone can tell if you are playing the changes innit.

[ragman1]

If you don’t play the fast bit simply at least a bit noone can tell if you are playing the changes innit.

[ragman1]

Graham, are you too on the hunt for cool notes at 100 mph? Bloody thing's addictive :-)

[pamosmusic]

Hmm well now I’m hearing the Ab and Bb in the Gmaj7 bar as being a ghost note/fumble followed by an A natural.

With this sort of stuff it becomes a question of what it the player actually playing, and the notes you can hear clearly are G C E D# C# which suggests the G whole/half diminished scale. The a natural is consistent with that (if we take the Ab as a hangover from whatever the hell is going on in the previous bar.

Which gives us… Gb major (with an added b6) followed by G whole half then A melodic minor.

Over the chord roots, Bb phrygian/phrygian dominant then chord quality change to Go7(maj7) into the whole half scale then F# locrian #2

actually that makes sense

Geez. He’s intense.

That spot at 11:20 is ludacris. Transcribe that next? K thx.

[Christian Miller]

Geez. He’s intense.

That spot at 11:20 is ludacris. Transcribe that next? K thx.

entirely beyond the original scope of the exercise haha, because that don’t sound like no tetrachord to me

Ok

I’m up to 10:20 now - given a chorus lasts about twenty seconds, that’s three more choruses lol

[grahambop]

Graham, are you too on the hunt for cool notes at 100 mph? Bloody thing's addictive :-)

I’ve been messing about with the 8-bar progression a bit, I find I need to hear the chord tones properly then I kind of know how to link my ideas so they flow through it better. I haven’t really got it to that point yet (but I haven’t spent much time on it yet). I can practise all sorts of scales and arps on it, but until my ear ‘gets it’, it doesn’t really flow and connect as I would like. Guess I’m more of an ‘ear player’ at the end of the day.

The progression reminds me a bit of Giant Steps, I can sort of play that ok (not super fast though!) because I’ve got the chord tones and sounds pretty well internalised.

[grahambop]

I don’t have much trouble with the A section though. I really ought to learn the melody properly, I’ve never got round to it.

The melody in the old real book looks a bit crap to me (especially near the end), the one in the new Hal Leonard edition looks more accurate (based on my listening to the original recording).

[ragman1]

I’ve been messing about with the 8-bar progression a bit, I find I need to hear the chord tones properly then I kind of know how to link my ideas so they flow through it better. I haven’t really got it to that point yet (but I haven’t spent much time on it yet). I can practise all sorts of scales and arps on it, but until my ear ‘gets it’, it doesn’t really flow and connect as I would like. Guess I’m more of an ‘ear player’ at the end of the day.

The progression reminds me a bit of Giant Steps, I can sort of play that ok (not super fast though!) because I’ve got the chord tones and sounds pretty well internalised.

I've got all the sounds I want but I'm tempted to skip the melody, it's pretty complex and difficult. I'm trying to do a simplified version but I suppose that's cheating and it's a bit of a dirge done slowly.

Kris did quite a nice bossa thing which I liked. He got through the melody okay on that.

[ccroft]

...The melody in the old real book looks a bit crap to me (especially near the end), the one in the new Hal Leonard edition looks more accurate (based on my listening to the original recording).

Might it be this? From a big band arrangement by Mark Taylor, found thru Hal Leonard on line:




My Real Book version

Trouble is, Joe plays the head 4 times on the original release and each time it's a bit different.

As for the various quintuples and sixteenths: if you slow those waaay down they're pretty unclear. More like ghost or grace notes. Especially the last one in the Mark Taylor. Last beat of bar 1 does sound like the way Mark wrote it more than the Real Book to me.

What I hear a lot in the posted versions is all triplet up and down. Daa - Dee diddley Da, diddley De, diddley Da, sorta thing. As long as you nail the De's and Da's, at tempo maybe it doesn't matter too much what connects. I think Christian said a version of that about a year or so ago.

Second half of bar 2 is where the real controversy is. The pitches. I tried and tried to hear what Joe does and I really can't say. I lean to Real book. Maybe only because I've been playing it that way for a while. It works with the upcoming chord in bar 3. A sort of foreshadowing?

I try to play the last 8 as diatonically as I can, mainly because I want to be better at that sort of thing. And also because I like Larry's solo a lot.

.... I can practise all sorts of scales and arps on it, but until my ear ‘gets it’, it doesn’t really flow and connect as I would like.

That's my goal: improvise a line that flows coherently thru all that. There's some nice ascending voice leading that keeps coming up for me. What Abercrombie called playing a straight line thru a circle. (at least I think that's what he meant)

I hear resolution in that progression.

[Christian Miller]

IIRC on the sax these fast bits are kind of shapes that come out of the fingering - you just whizz up and down them