Mike Moreno solo on green dolphin

[kris]

This guy seems to be able to follow Mr Moreno pretty well:

Yes. This is a very good example of playing in great time.
8's thinking and listening to each other makes it very clear playing.
The musicians have a very good sense of time and control each other.
A perfect duo.!
Often the saxophonist plays the 8th pulse which controls the whole.
When you try to tap your foot on 2 & 4 everything swings beautifully and flows beautifully.
Great stuff!

[grahambop]

Which they worked out beforehand.

No they didn’t. They don’t need to.

[kris]

Because they worked it out beforehand. They didn't start the tune till about 1.30!

And it wasn't coinciding that well, either. You can get away with an awful lot with sax and a guitar. If you listen closely.

A strange way of reacting to the duo's excellent performance.
I do not understand this.
Such bland comments lower the level of this jazz guitar forum.sorry.

[ragman1]

Ben Wendel has done a lot of these videos with other players, including several guitarists - Julian Lage, Lage Lund, Miles Okazaki, Gilad Hekselman.

Ben Wendel - Saxophonist / Composer - YouTube

I'd say some worked better than others. Personally, I didn't find the Mike Moreno one that terrific, possibly because he plays quite out a lot of the time.

And Graham, nothing personal, but to suggest they didn't need to consider what they were going to do before making the video sounds to me like complete nonsense. And I don't mean just choosing which tune to play!

[Lionelsax]

Ben Wendel has done a lot of these videos with other players, including several guitarists - Julian Lage, Lage Lund, Miles Okazaki, Gilad Hekselman.

Ben Wendel - Saxophonist / Composer - YouTube


I'd say some worked better than others. Personally, I didn't find the Mike Moreno one that terrific, possibly because he plays quite out a lot of the time.

And Graham, nothing personal, but to suggest they didn't need to consider what they were going to do before making the video sounds to me like complete nonsense. And I don't mean just choosing which tune to play!

May I ask you a question ?
What do you feel when you hear you play ?
What is your musical approach ? How is your perception ?
What do you feel when you hear music ?
Have you ever played with someone who really plays jazz ? I don't mean wannabes like us but real musicians.

[grahambop]

Ben Wendel has done a lot of these videos with other players, including several guitarists - Julian Lage, Lage Lund, Miles Okazaki, Gilad Hekselman.

Ben Wendel - Saxophonist / Composer - YouTube

I'd say some worked better than others. Personally, I didn't find the Mike Moreno one that terrific, possibly because he plays quite out a lot of the time.

And Graham, nothing personal, but to suggest they didn't need to consider what they were going to do before making the video sounds to me like complete nonsense. And I don't mean just choosing which tune to play!

Seriously, musicians of that calibre don’t need any preparation or agreement whatsoever to play a standard like that, other than agreeing which tune to play.

In Miles’ group, he didn’t even bother to name the tune half the time, just kicked off a tempo and expected the group to recognise the tune immediately, it’s well known from interviews etc.

I don’t think I have a reputation for spouting nonsense on this forum, as far as I am aware.

[kris]

Ben Wendel has done a lot of these videos with other players, including several guitarists - Julian Lage, Lage Lund, Miles Okazaki, Gilad Hekselman.

Ben Wendel - Saxophonist / Composer - YouTube

I'd say some worked better than others. Personally, I didn't find the Mike Moreno one that terrific, possibly because he plays quite out a lot of the time.

And Graham, nothing personal, but to suggest they didn't need to consider what they were going to do before making the video sounds to me like complete nonsense. And I don't mean just choosing which tune to play!

I do not understand this.
The duo plays at a high level and the two musicians feel each other perfectly.
What is this about?

[ragman1]

May I ask you a question ?
1. What do you feel when you hear you play ?
2. What is your musical approach ? How is your perception ?
3. What do you feel when you hear music ?
4. Have you ever played with someone who really plays jazz ? I don't mean wannabes like us but real musicians.

I'll answer you but it won't make the slightest difference.

1. Some of it I like, some I don't. If I don't, I dump it.
2. That's too complicated for a quick answer.
3. What I feel obviously depends on the music.
4. Yes, several. Guitarists, sax players, bands (not big bands).

[ragman1]

Seriously, musicians of that calibre don’t need any preparation or agreement whatsoever to play a standard like that, other than agreeing which tune to play.

In Miles’ group, he didn’t even bother to name the tune half the time, just kicked off a tempo and expected the group to recognise the tune immediately, it’s well known from interviews etc.

I don’t think I have a reputation for spouting nonsense on this forum, as far as I am aware.

Sorry, but neither of us have the slightest idea what they did or didn't do. And how do we know which take that was? Or how much rehearsal they had?

You rarely spout nonsense as I'm well aware, but this idea that they just say hello, turn on the recording, play a tune, and then go off to the pub (or something) sounds unrealistic to me. Not that it couldn't be done but I get a little bored with this idea that good musicians are some kind of supermen. For one thing they'd have to work out which arrangement they're using, wouldn't they?

[ragman1]

I do not understand this.
The duo plays at a high level and the two musicians feel each other perfectly.
What is this about?

It's about you being right and someone else being wrong :-)

Have you listened to the other duets with guitarists that he did? Some felt much more in touch with each other than others. Personally, I had the feeling he and Moreno were in different spaces to a large extent. Not badly, but enough to make a difference.

There's no reason at all to assume that any two jazz musicians, just because they're jazz musicians, are going to match each other perfectly every time. In fact, it's rubbish. We're different people, different brains, different spirits.

I'd say we're very lucky to find other players with whom we feel connected and in tune with. 'You're only as good as the people you play with'. Haven't you heard that saying?

[grahambop]

Have you listened to the other duets with guitarists that he did? Some felt much more in touch with each other than others. Personally, I had the feeling he and Moreno were in different spaces to a large extent. Not badly, but enough to make a difference.

lol, despite all that preparation and rehearsal they must have done.

[ragman1]

I wouldn't know, as I said. But if they weren't entirely compatible there's not much one can do about it. C'est la vie, etc. But they obviously felt compatible enough to post the video.

[Lionelsax]

Sorry, but neither of us have the slightest idea what they did or didn't do. And how do we know which take that was? Or how much rehearsal they had?

You rarely spout nonsense as I'm well aware, but this idea that they just say hello, turn on the recording, play a tune, and then go off to the pub (or something) sounds unrealistic to me. Not that it couldn't be done but I get a little bored with this idea that good musicians are some kind of supermen. For one thing they'd have to work out which arrangement they're using, wouldn't they?

Generally you bring with you what you've got, do you rehearsal a conversation with someone you don't know ?
I can talk only about my experience, I invest on myself, I work the tunes I know.
I'm not reading the Real Book, the few tunes I know I've got them inside me, it's a melody and a form, everything can happen if the form is respected.
Great players has got this culture.

It really happens in real jam sessions... Do you think they read the Real Book while they're playing and say : "You're wrong ! Look at the Bible !"

Those who created it have got a big regret. They wanted a book just for a kind a help, nothing else.

Now everyone reads it like if it were classical music, something that cannot change.
When you play a tune, everything has to move ! It's interaction.
Everyone knows On Green Dolphin Street ! I don't know where it is but it's a big standard.

Seriously you're such a... You're such a... ragman1 !

[grahambop]

Sorry, but neither of us have the slightest idea what they did or didn't do. And how do we know which take that was? Or how much rehearsal they had?

You rarely spout nonsense as I'm well aware, but this idea that they just say hello, turn on the recording, play a tune, and then go off to the pub (or something) sounds unrealistic to me. Not that it couldn't be done but I get a little bored with this idea that good musicians are some kind of supermen. For one thing they'd have to work out which arrangement they're using, wouldn't they?

Why do you think they need an ‘arrangement’ or a rehearsal? It’s called improvising for a reason!

It’s a standard, one of the most well-known, it’s usually played in Eb, there is no ‘arrangement’ because everyone knows the common changes. They are not supermen, they just use their ears and play together. The sax player only had to listen for a few moments to get the tempo and then he joined in, improvising simultaneously. At a suitable point in the form, they went into the melody.

Honestly, I don’t know why you think this is so difficult to do, I could probably do it myself, though not as well as they do, obviously.

I bet if I went for a lesson with Mike Moreno he might well expect me to play something with him off the cuff like this, probably so he could gauge what level I was at.

Seriously, I’m baffled why you think jazz musicians at their level don’t do this.

I have seen plenty of duo gigs where someone just calls a standard and off they go. In fact it’s probably easier to do when there are only 2 players.

I think the key here is that this idea sounds unrealistic TO YOU. That much is true.

[grahambop]

For example, here's Mike Moreno and Julian Lage turning on the amp, buggering about with the controls for a couple of minutes, then launching into a standard. About as chaotic and unrehearsed as you can get, I should think. Music starts at 2:14.

[kris]

It's all laughable.
Here everyone convinces Ragman that the duo plays nice.
Musicians of this caliber play standards without any laborious rehearsals.
I myself played standards in various types of instrumental duets for several years.
Good ears and good knowledge of jazz standards are essential.
There is no philosophy in this.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe a quick talk through for arrangement ideas if you are recording? But yeah rehearsal would be unnecessary especially for a old warhorse like GDS

[John A.]

Why do you think they need an ‘arrangement’ or a rehearsal? It’s called improvising for a reason!

It’s a standard, one of the most well-known, it’s usually played in Eb, there is no ‘arrangement’ because everyone knows the common changes. They are not supermen, they just use their ears and play together. The sax player only had to listen for a few moments to get the tempo and then he joined in, improvising simultaneously. At a suitable point in the form, they went into the melody.

Honestly, I don’t know why you think this is so difficult to do, I could probably do it myself, though not as well as they do, obviously.

I bet if I went for a lesson with Mike Moreno he might well expect me to play something with him off the cuff like this, probably so he could gauge what level I was at.

Seriously, I’m baffled why you think jazz musicians at their level don’t do this.

I have seen plenty of duo gigs where someone just calls a standard and off they go. In fact it’s probably easier to do when there are only 2 players.

I think the key here is that this idea sounds unrealistic TO YOU. That much is true.

I’ve done many gigs where there was no rehearsal or arrangements worked out in advance. Just show up, call a tune, maybe say something “I’ll give you 8 bars up front” or "right on it", and you just play. I did a gig with a pianist a couple of weeks ago where we did that. Not mention countless sitting-in or jam situations. Playing a standard off the cuff is part of the basic jazz player’s tool kit (and jazZ players don’t get much more basic than I).

[kris]

Oh dear, this is a sad sight. You've just taken off on your own carousel. You're attributing to me thoughts and attitudes that I don't have and have never voiced. You seem to think I don't know how experienced professional players behave with each other. You think I see them as bumbling beginners, or maybe intermediaries, who have to sit down nervously and work out their every move!

I don't think that, I've never said that, I've never thought that. Of course they know the tune and they know how to play it. If they're going to make a video for posterity they need to settle on an arrangement and then take it from there. That's all. When and where have I said or implied anything different?

I think you need to assume these things so you have someone to preach at, to boost your own wonderfully superior knowledge and experience. In other words your egos are at work.

I remember occasions when the Jehovah Witnesses came to the door. Without invitation they'd start preaching at you as if you were an ignoramus who knew nothing about religion or their beliefs. They never checked to see who they were talking to first, they just assumed it so they could spout their spiel at you, from a superior position of them knowing and you not knowing, naturally.

So carry on preaching, boys, it's all bit sad.

By the way, not one of you has mentioned the other players that Ben Wendel has made videos with on YouTube. Which of these do you think sounded the most connected, the most comfortable? It wasn't Moreno, I can tell you that!

Waste of time.

[ragman1]

I insist you need to know which version (if you don't like the word arrangement) you're both playing. Most songs have different versions. The players themselves may have suggested that they do x,y or z to make it different.

This is an ignorant discussion because, as I said before, we don't know what they did. Not a single one of us, myself included.

[ragman1]

Waste of time.

Correct!

[kris]

I’ve done many gigs where there was no rehearsal or arrangements worked out in advance. Just show up, call a tune, maybe say something “I’ll give you 8 bars up front” or "right on it", and you just play. I did a gig with a pianist a couple of weeks ago where we did that. Not mention countless sitting-in or jam situations. Playing a standard off the cuff is part of the basic jazz player’s tool kit (and jazZ players don’t get much more basic than I).

+1
Totally agreed.

[kris]

I insist you need to know which version (if you don't like the word arrangement) you're both playing. Most songs have different versions. The players themselves may have suggested that they do x,y or z to make it different.

This is an ignorant discussion because, as I said before, we don't know what they did. Not a single one of us, myself included.

what do you need this knowledge for?
Two musicians play great music.
Is that not enough?
Maybe you still want to know what was for dinner and what they drank ... because they swing very well.
ps.
They could treat the first take as a sound test and discuss/introduction/-it's probably normal.
It doesn't matter. They recorded it and it's OK.

[ragman1]

You contradict yourself.

[John A.]

I insist you need to know which version (if you don't like the word arrangement) you're both playing. Most songs have different versions. The players themselves may have suggested that they do x,y or z to make it different.

This is an ignorant discussion because, as I said before, we don't know what they did. Not a single one of us, myself included.

Not ignorance, but informed speculation. You’re the one who seems least informed on the subject.