Singing while improvising

[kris]

Here's a video. Sorry for the dismal lighting, it's very sunny outside.

Inculcate in Polish: wpajac.

All right.
You know what's going on. Now do it with the easy backing track.
Close your eyes, don't think about theory and let your imagination from your brain through singing reach your fingers.
You're well acquainted with jazz music and you must have a lot of ideas in your head.Be creative.
Try singing on the backing track without the guitar first.
Build phrases and control the rhythm and feeling...pa du ba du ba du ba baba-syncopations not to many notes.
The voice is meant to be your guide and controller.
Do the same then with guitar and voice and control each other voice-guitar, guitar-voice.
By listening to the guitar notes you can clear the falsehoods in the voice - it helps.
This method of practice frees me from playing the same phrases or licks over and over that I've practiced for a long time.
I don't want my fingers to rule my playing...although it's not easy.
It's very difficult for me to convey this due to language deficiencies ... sorry ...

[Lionelsax]

This is mine !

This is the original

[Victor Saumarez]

Read more posts. It was already.

Thank you for the recommendation. I will try to read more posts in the future. In respect of your last pearl of wisdom, I am a little confused (it's a age thing). What was already?

[Victor Saumarez]

Wow. So let's set sum up the meta-positions espoused thus far:


"1. If it doesn't work for me and my process of creating music, it can't work for anyone."

"2. I am right and anybody who disagrees with me is wrong. Even people who mostly agree with me are probably wrong."

"3. If you disagree with me, you are insulting me."

Sorry to be so harsh, but so much of what has been written in this thread is nonsense. If singing as a guide helps you with playing and improvising, use it. If it is not helpful to you, don't use it. What works for you may not be what works for me. Herb Ellis famously vocalized along with himself when he played; Jim Hall vocalized along with himself when he played; many other brilliant jazz musicians vocalized along with themselves when they played. Did they all actually suck because of this? And there are brilliant jazz musicians who don't do that. Did they suck?

We all have to find what works for us. Because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it's invalid for me and vice versa. At the end of the day, what matters is whether we are satisfied with what we play.

I will close with quotes from Bill Frisell and BB King. Bill was going out on stage with Charles Lloyd, who turned and said "I look forward to singing with you tonight." Bill was struck by this because ultimately all music is singing. BB King commented in a number of interviews that when he stopped singing and started soloing, he still felt like he was singing. We may sing with our respiratory system and our mouth or we may sing with an instrument, but it is ultimately all singing. If you are not singing in one way or another, are you actually playing music? If you find yourself feeling defensive about this, that might be worth considering.

With all due respect aren't you a little guilty of the crime you are accusing others of. Apparently, we're all writing "nonsense" inferring you are somehow not, and therefore "are right" to use your own words.

[kris]

Thank you for the recommendation. I will try to read more posts in the future. In respect of your last pearl of wisdom , I am a little confused (it's a age thing). What was already?

I mean G. Benson...It's been talked about Benson in previous posts.
...."your last pear of wisdom"-is that a compliment or rude?

[Victor Saumarez]

I mean G. Benson...It's been talked about Benson in previous posts.
...."your last pear of wisdom"-is that a compliment or rude?

My question, too. There wasn't much meat for me to hang a thought on, so I took brevity as terseness. I'm old fashioned I guess. Apologies for the apparent misunderstanding.

[kris]

This is mine !

This is the original

Very good Lionel,
Now focus and record a shorter solo...2-3 choruses...medium tempo blues backing track.
Focus more on rhythm and feeling.
Have fun with fewer notes...control the rhythm.Listen to the backing track to bond with it.
Feeling!

[kris]

My question, too. There wasn't much meat for me to hang a thought on, so I took brevity as terseness. I'm old fashioned I guess. Apologies for the apparent misunderstanding.

Do not worry,
No problem.I could have written more clearly, but I was in a hurry.
Best
kris

[Lionelsax]

Very good Lionel,
Now focus and record a shorter solo...2-3 choruses...medium tempo blues backing track.
Focus more on rhythm and feeling.
Have fun with fewer notes...control the rhythm.Listen to the backing track to bond with it.
Feeling!

Thanks but where did you hear a backing track ?

[kris]

Thanks but where did you hear a backing track ?

I wrote : you record a new video with a backing track in the future.

[ragman1]

Now do it with the easy backing track.

But I do that with every tune I play. And the backing tracks are seldom 'easy'!

[kris]

But I do that with every tune I play. And the backing tracks are seldom 'easy'!

blues in cm is easy..i hope.

[Lionelsax]

I wrote : you record a new video with a backing track in the future.

No, it's too easy for me.

[kris]

No, it's too easy for me.

ok.....

[fep]

When you improvise by ear, singing along or not, are you aware of the key center, or the chord name(s) of the moment, or the chord(s) coming up, etc.?

[AllanAllen]

Like the student who said to Jimmy Raney ‘I want to be original’. Jimmy - ‘but you cant play yet’

I think of this all the time.

[Groyniad]

i'm so grateful that my first jazz lesson was with herb ellis (video) and he said a whole bunch of times:

'you gotta play what you sing / sing what you play' (he wasn't philosophical about which way round - though it may seem important, and perhaps is)

(he also said - 'look - you got 12 notes (playing chromatic scale)....' less helpful)

i've always loved this line of Herb's too - but i don't think he was joking:

'saxophone players do it too - you just can't hear them 'cause they got the horn in their mouths'....

but seriously - this (singing business) is not optional seems to me (and you can do it quietly enough that you don't have to go all Keith Jarrett on the gig - and he's not singing anyway)

and i think a very good way to get into it if it doesn't just come naturally is to sing not only all the tunes you learn but all the exercises you do too - most people call them 'scales and arpeggios' - which is okay i suppose

but sing them

and make sure all the 'scales and arpeggios' you do make musical sense - so singing them can happen naturally

a minimal condition of making musical sense is being 'in time'

if you play a major scale in C from C to C and back down to C - it is not going to be 'in time' (assuming each note is e.g. a crotchet)

if you play a major scale in C from C to D (the ninth not the second) and back down - it will be 'in time'. (that's what i mean about your 'scales and arpeggios' having to be 'in time' if they're going to make musical sense)

and this point is crucial because - you have to sing all the exercises you do (not ALL the time because your voice will get tired - but enough to make sure you can sing all the cool sounds you're playing) and that has to be natural and easy - so it has to be 'in time'.

----

the other fab. thing to do is have a CD in the car of lots of crucial Parker tunes (if you're into modern jazz), and learn to sing/shout them as you go along (with the windows down, and no-one in the car). after a while you can start to sing along with his solos too (with the windows down and no-one else in the car).

and then - if the mood comes upon you - start singing the tunes / solos (phrases from solos) without listening to the record

-

the other big one is taking a phrase (e.g. the repeated refrain of 'Cool Blues' - i just mean a 'substantial' cool idea) and play it again and again whilst singing it - any phrase from any solo you really dig...

---

you don't have to sing all the time - but you do have to be able to sing anything you've played (and that doesn't mean we all have to be veronica swift or cleo lane) - which is a bit like saying - any phrase you play, you have to be able to play it again (or sing it back).

imagine not being able to repeat what you just said (when not blind drunk etc.). you say - 'did you bring the marmalade?' - the person you are speaking to says 'pardon' - and you say 'err...err - can i bring the marmite? '....

you'd have to be bonkers

and ordinary speech is improvised...

if you mean it and it makes sense you can say it again

[Rsilver]

When you improvise by ear, singing along or not, are you aware of the key center, or the chord name(s) of the moment, or the chord(s) coming up, etc.?

Ideally shouldn’t be …. no time to think. However, we all sneak in a thought about “where we are in the tune” here or there.

[Lionelsax]

When you improvise by ear, singing along or not, are you aware of the key center, or the chord name(s) of the moment, or the chord(s) coming up, etc.?

Yes for the key center, for the chord names it depends, I prefer speaking about the form.
I'm not a singer, the voice only helps me for the dynamics although I sometimes sing better than people who claim they are singers.

[kris]

i'm so grateful that my first jazz lesson was with herb ellis (video) and he said a whole bunch of times:

'you gotta play what you sing / sing what you play' (he wasn't philosophical about which way round - though it may seem important, and perhaps is)

(he also said - 'look - you got 12 notes (playing chromatic scale)....' less helpful)

i've always loved this line of Herb's too - but i don't think he was joking:

'saxophone players do it too - you just can't hear them 'cause they got the horn in their mouths'....

but seriously - this (singing business) is not optional seems to me (and you can do it quietly enough that you don't have to go all Keith Jarrett on the gig - and he's not singing anyway)

and i think a very good way to get into it if it doesn't just come naturally is to sing not only all the tunes you learn but all the exercises you do too - most people call them 'scales and arpeggios' - which is okay i suppose

but sing them

and make sure all the 'scales and arpeggios' you do make musical sense - so singing them can happen naturally

a minimal condition of making musical sense is being 'in time'

if you play a major scale in C from C to C and back down to C - it is not going to be 'in time' (assuming each note is e.g. a crotchet)

if you play a major scale in C from C to D (the ninth not the second) and back down - it will be 'in time'. (that's what i mean about your 'scales and arpeggios' having to be 'in time' if they're going to make musical sense)

and this point is crucial because - you have to sing all the exercises you do (not ALL the time because your voice will get tired - but enough to make sure you can sing all the cool sounds you're playing) and that has to be natural and easy - so it has to be 'in time'.

----

the other fab. thing to do is have a CD in the car of lots of crucial Parker tunes (if you're into modern jazz), and learn to sing/shout them as you go along (with the windows down, and no-one in the car). after a while you can start to sing along with his solos too (with the windows down and no-one else in the car).

and then - if the mood comes upon you - start singing the tunes / solos (phrases from solos) without listening to the record

-

the other big one is taking a phrase (e.g. the repeated refrain of 'Cool Blues' - i just mean a 'substantial' cool idea) and play it again and again whilst singing it - any phrase from any solo you really dig...

---

you don't have to sing all the time - but you do have to be able to sing anything you've played (and that doesn't mean we all have to be veronica swift or cleo lane) - which is a bit like saying - any phrase you play, you have to be able to play it again (or sing it back).

imagine not being able to repeat what you just said (when not blind drunk etc.). you say - 'did you bring the marmalade?' - the person you are speaking to says 'pardon' - and you say 'err...err - can i bring the marmite? '....

you'd have to be bonkers

and ordinary speech is improvised...

if you mean it and it makes sense you can say it again

Of course.
All this should be natural and results from constant practice over the years.
Listening to music on a daily basis and passion for jazz music.
It's all about playing with notes and hearing better while improvising.
Then you gain confidence when playing jazz.A long time ago I was afraid to sing at all.
Now I have gained confidence that what I play is not so hopeless.

[Lionelsax]

I made a recording 15 minutes ago...connected mic and guitar...I think you can hear me 'singing".
I have phrases in my head and with the help of my singing I bring them to life on the guitar.
I don't play what I practiced yesterday on the guitar for 3 hours.I'm behaving like Ragman:






Box

Very good but like many of us, the voice is not leading (the guitar is wonderful), you have to dig into.
Your voice doesn't sound like shit so you should be more confident.
It sounds like someone in a choir who follows the guy who knows his part.
In what I did, I tried to do the opposite, I think I did a little bit even if I mostly failed.
I think the voice is very useful when you can't remember a standard head, in that case the voice is leading.

I meant the guitar helps your voice, it should be the opposite.
On the other hand, singing gives confidence, the instrument becomes more a part of the body than an extra prosthetic member that plays by itself.

Like you said : "Feeling"

[kris]

Very good but like many of us, the voice is not leading (the guitar is wonderful), you have to dig into.
Your voice doesn't sound like shit so you should be more confident.
It sounds like someone in a choir who follows the guy who knows his part.
In what I did, I tried to do the opposite, I think I did a little bit even if I mostly failed.
I think the voice is very useful when you can't remember a standard head, in that case the voice is leading.

I meant the guitar helps your voice, it should be the opposite.
On the other hand, singing gives confidence, the instrument becomes more a part of the body than an extra prosthetic member that plays by itself.

Like you said : "Feeling"

I am a guitarist and the guitar solo is my priority. I will never be a vocalist and I don't want to be one.
To be a singer, I would have to learn it like professional singers do.
Singing like mine is just some kind of controlling tool and inspiring at the same time.
I do it silently.
I did louder scat singing during the last concert and the audience was delighted and some said that I sing jazz better than real singers.
Perhaps it was a very successful solo with good or very good feeing.
ps.
Herb Ellis said this is an important thing.
I understand it like this:
some musicians do it - here he gave the names and there are musicians who don't do it.

[Alter]

I always sing what I'm playing, but internally. Sometimes I try humming or scatting and indeed it's better. On ballads even my breathing rhythm goes together with the phrases. And the same with body posture and movement.

It's all an effort to get into the music as much as possible. But I see two big advantages in singing. First you have to breath, so you'll stop playing more often and end up sounding like a voice a bit more (so more phrases, paragraphs and forms into the solo), which is always a good thing. You also get into it more, since you're actually.. singing!

Most music styles are vocal styles, so I've found transcribing vocalists a great practice, especially in blues, gospel, etc. When I play electric guitar solos, I basically hear a gospel singer (or Curtis Mayfield basically ).

Second is, singing focuses more on how things actually sound, and less on what lies on the fretboard. Try singing a solo instead of playing one, it will probably be a lot better, cause it will be all music instead of finger patterns (forgiving our non-singer lack of technique in singing difficult intervals etc )..

The one drawback is, if you sing everything you play, it becomes more difficult to actually sing something else on top of that, but it's just a matter of practicing..

[Lionelsax]

Well, I'll never know why people give advice about things they can't achieve themselves, over all on jazz forums.

Nevermind, Kris wanted me to play a blues, after drinking two coffees, I made this, it's just one take.
No rehearsal, it came like this.

This is the original !

For those who have no time to listen, this is the fast one (thanks audacity !).

For those who wonder what came first, guitar or voice, this is the slow one.

I can't play the blues, I can't sing, I know nothing about bebop, harmony, articulation, etc.
I already know it !

[ragman1]

some musicians do it - here he gave the names and there are musicians who don't do it.

Exactly, we're all different. Each player has his way of playing a solo. Some like to sing or hum. Others don't, but they have their own way of playing; they feel it internally, or whatever it is they do. I think that's all really, isn't it?

By the way, here you are. Blues For Kris (in C minor) :-)