Singing while improvising

[kris]

Maybe instrumentalists are repressed singers. They really want to sing and open themselves but they've only got it second-hand through their instrument. So they sing as they play to make the connection.

It's my theory

I mean, you're not an instrumentalist.
nr 10 Never allow yourself the luxory of complacency or self-satisfaction
nr 27 Be critical on your playing.
nr 28 Be your own teacher,Keep a checklist for measuring your own growth.

etc...........................................

[kris]

if prof. Baker was still with us and on this forum, cats would be arguing with him too lol

After a while you just have to leave this place. It’ll make you crazy (crazier in my case haha.)

+1
haha

[kris]

I know he wasn't a great musician but it can be interesting.

You can hear this brilliant guitarist quietly singing and breathing... 46min.
Thanks for video link
Best
Kris

[Christian Miller]

Good points, but this IS kind of an amateur jazz guitar learning site, is it not? Who knows.

For as long as I’ve been here it’s been a space where amateurs and professionals mix. Not generally high level famous pros (by jazz standards) but quite a few jobbing players who can play as well some very good amateurs.

but as I’ve said elsewhere the amateur/pro thing is not the big division. It’s the being able to play/not being able to play divide that we should focus on.

Anyway, if jazz pros are deities and their every utterance about musicianship is the word of god, what shall we do when they contradict each other? Call 911 for the Jazz police?

What I’ve done is look for common themes. You won’t find many laws of physics (because it’s an artform) but you will find pathways that seem to have worked for a lot of people. One common pathway is the one I’ve outlined above. Listen, steal, apply until you achieve basic competence. Then you can start to explore a bit more.

There are also pathways that most often lead to noodling meandering plaything at best.

On “Rubber Soul” George Harrison had a song entitled “Think For Yourself”. Where Jazz Ed. is concerned, I think that’s pretty good advice.

I’m sympathetic to that. Jazz edu is full of cults and contradictions. But - there are underlying commonalities between what people say. The ear is one. The importance of checking out the music in detail is another, for example. It’s hard to separate correlation and causation etc, but it is possible to try things out.

Thinking for yourself in this context does not mean rejecting the whole shebang and making up your own shit (or accepting some other counter narrative) or arguing the toss on the internet - it means weighing things up, trying things out and deciding based on that. Then your playing does the arguing for you.

Anyway, getting a teacher who has experience and can not only play but has a track record of helping players is tremendously helpful. As a chippy autodidact I always found that tough. So I’ve taken bits from all over that I’ve found useful. You do have to apprentice yourself to something for a while - at least a few months - before you can know, and there’s obviously a risk of going down a blind alley and carrying on due to the sunk costs fallacy. But I don’t think that will be a problem for you.

[Christian Miller]

I have a lot of Baker’s lovely books. How would you compare and contrast the utility of his pattern books - and his blues book - with his How To Play Bebop books?

Put another way, how many man-hours would you advise the music student spend on each? Please provide the answer in terms of hours from 0-5000. But only if you want to.

So the only bit I personally used from Baker was where he says if ‘you learn 50 bebop heads you will know all the bop language you need.’ (He has a list) And I thought ‘sounds like a plan!’ and learned bop heads for a few years alongside things like Charlie Christian, Parker and Lester young solos (I want to say 2012-2015 ish, fairly focussed so an hour or two a day for 5 days a week say.) I did this by ear btw, not from books.

I wouldn’t say I got to 50, but I did transpose to different keys and take those lines apart. A bonus is that you can play this stuff on gigs and jams.

Seemed like that would be more help than all the scales and stuff.

It worked I would say.

then I got back into Barry Harris after that. Barry took me from the cut and paste ii V licks thing into being able freely come up with idiomatic bop lines myself; but I wouldn’t actually recommend the latter without the former. That took another 3 or 4 years of reasonably focussed work.

I was also into Hal Galper - the book forward motion was really helpful in understanding what was going on. I was also a little bit into the Warne Marsh/Tristano thing though I never got to the hardcore levels on that.

(I could already play a bit by 2012 btw but I wasn’t a good language guy.)

[kris]

For as long as I’ve been here it’s been a space where amateurs and professionals mix. Not generally high level famous pros (by jazz standards) but quite a few jobbing players who can play as well some very good amateurs.

but as I’ve said elsewhere the amateur/pro thing is not the big division. It’s the being able to play/not being able to play divide that we should focus on.



What I’ve done is look for common themes. You won’t find many laws of physics (because it’s an artform) but you will find pathways that seem to have worked for a lot of people. One common pathway is the one I’ve outlined above. Listen, steal, apply until you achieve basic competence. Then you can start to explore a bit more.

There are also pathways that most often lead to noodling meandering plaything at best.



I’m sympathetic to that. Jazz edu is full of cults and contradictions. But - there are underlying commonalities between what people say. The ear is one. The importance of checking out the music in detail is another, for example. It’s hard to separate correlation and causation etc, but it is possible to try things out.

Thinking for yourself in this context does not mean rejecting the whole shebang and making up your own shit (or accepting some other counter narrative) or arguing the toss on the internet - it means weighing things up, trying things out and deciding based on that. Then your playing does the arguing for you.

Anyway, getting a teacher who has experience and can not only play but has a track record of helping players is tremendously helpful. As a chippy autodidact I always found that tough. So I’ve taken bits from all over that I’ve found useful. You do have to apprentice yourself to something for a while - at least a few months - before you can know, and there’s obviously a risk of going down a blind alley and carrying on due to the sunk costs fallacy. But I don’t think that will be a problem for you.

Well done Christian.
This is the whole truth.
From my humble point of view, a musician who records albums and gives concerts is also sometimes difficult to talk about.
That's why I sometimes ask for some recordings of the person I'm talking to.
From the recordings I am able to assess the "knowledge" of the playing musician.
It often works against me for exalting myself etc.
The interesting thing, however, is that those musicians who, in my opinion, play at the right level always get along with me.
This is very interesting.
All The Best
Kris

[Christian Miller]

You know that does work out to be a few thousand hours now I think about it. Just on that stuff. (Why am I not better?)

you just have to enjoy putting in the hours

It’s not like you ever listen to your playing and think ‘yep that’s it, nothing more to work on.’ I don’t know anyone who feels that. It’s more like you come to terms with imperfection and enjoy the journey. There’s a zen garden in Kyoto blah blah blah

[kris]

So the only bit I personally used from Baker was where he says if ‘you learn 50 bebop heads you will know all the bop language you need.’ (He has a list) And I thought ‘sounds like a plan!’ and learned bop heads for a few years alongside things like Charlie Christian, Parker and Lester young solos (I want to say 2012-2015 ish, fairly focussed so an hour or two a day for 5 days a week say.) I did this by ear btw, not from books.

I wouldn’t say I got to 50, but I did transpose to different keys and take those lines apart. A bonus is that you can play this stuff on gigs and jams.

Seemed like that would be more help than all the scales and stuff.

It worked I would say.

then I got back into Barry Harris after that. Barry took me from the cut and paste ii V licks thing into being able freely come up with idiomatic bop lines myself; but I wouldn’t actually recommend the latter without the former. That took another 3 or 4 years of reasonably focussed work.

I was also into Hal Galper - the book forward motion was really helpful in understanding what was going on. I was also a little bit into the Warne Marsh/Tristano thing though I never got to the hardcore levels on that.

(I could already play a bit by 2012 btw but I wasn’t a good language guy.)

nr 7
Sing/play patterns from the 55 bebop tunes/see page 59/...:-)
I can post here the track list but it will be a lot of typing...haha

[waltf]

I think Tim Lerch calls it 'silent singing'.

Many players do it, some louder then others. I heard JD Simo do it.

[James W]

So the only bit I personally used from Baker was where he says if ‘you learn 50 bebop heads you will know all the bop language you need.’ (He has a list)

Where is this list?

[eblair89]

Where is this list?

There's a list of 55 tunes at the back of how to play bebop vol. 2!

[James W]

Cheers.

[Christian Miller]

That list? Never used it. I mean start with the obvious ones right?

Now’s the time
Billies bounce
blues for alice
scrapple
confirmation
anthropology
donna lee
Night in Tunsia
Yardbird suite
Groovin High
ornithology

everyone plays those

then maybe slightly less basic but still quite common ones
Joy Spring
Moose the Mooche
Dewey Square
Au Privave
Segment
half Nelson
Relaxin at the Camarillo
Celia
Hot House
Little Willie Leaps
Chi Chi
Quasimodo
Old Milestones
Boplicity
Conception
Dexterity
Four brothers
Marmaduke
The Serpents Tooth
Dance of the Infidels
Wail

not saying I could gig all of those now, but I looked at all of these and more

if you get that far I daresay you’ll be ok for thinking of more. People call things as well.

IIRC Baker included things that I would think of as more swing riff tunes than bop heads like Air Mail Special (which has a wicked B section tbf) and Tickle Toe, as well as I think some Monk heads?

And then there are the Tristano school contrafacts which I tend to think of as a whole different kettle of fish.

But really examine them and learn from them. I got a lot of ii V I language from Donna lee for instance (a lot of this language is reused in Little Willie Leaps iirc which is why I think DL is a Miles tune). Take lines and transpose and apply.

[kris]

There's a list of 55 tunes at the back of how to play bebop vol. 2!

Thanks.
The same list is in the Baker's book " A Creative Approach To Practising Jazz" only on 3 pages.

[Lionelsax]

You can hear this brilliant guitarist quietly singing and breathing... 46min.
Thanks for video link
Best
Kris

You're welcome, I wanted to show how a bad instrumentalist plays, he sings or whistles so he is a bad one.
This link can be interesting, their grandfather was Django, even if you won't understand a word you will understand what it's about.
Everyone sings !
At the end a 12 years old drummer sings Misty.
It's interesting to see what type of guitars they play.
"To play gypsy jazz you need one type of guitar, etc."
BS !!!

[kris]

Good points, but this IS kind of an amateur jazz guitar learning site, is it not? Who knows.

Anyway, if jazz pros are deities and their every utterance about musicianship is the word of god, what shall we do when they contradict each other? Call 911 for the Jazz police?

On “Rubber Soul” George Harrison had a song entitled “Think For Yourself”. Where Jazz Ed. is concerned, I think that’s pretty good advice.

Looks like you're a better jazz player than Herb.
Do you have any guitar concert recordings of your own?
I'm very curious.

[kris]

You're welcome, I wanted to show how a bad instrumentalist plays, he sings or whistles so he is a bad one.
This link can be interesting, their grandfather was Django, even if you won't understand a word you will understand what it's about.
Everyone sings !
At the end a 12 years old drummer sings Misty.
It's interesting to see what type of guitars they play.
"To play gypsy jazz you need one type of guitar, etc."
BS !!!

wow...exelent video.
Thanks Lionel
Jazzingy
Kris

[Lionelsax]

I am really fed up with people who belong to a kind of sect.
Because of a lack of gigs, a lot of musicians become instructors, they only say what they think what is good for them, they are not gurus, it's not a religion.
They write books, that's OK, it's part of their job, I don't think they want the people to become mad of that.
They are just ideas, not laws.
Music is interaction, if music doesn't make you sing, hum, whistle, dance...
If you only talk about music repeating what the others said or wrote, be a pseudo-philosopher not a musician.
Every great musicians I met were able to sing.
When you learn a tune, you sing it, it's a melody...
It's not an opinion, fire burns, water wets.

[kris]

Often when I don't have a guitar at hand, I sing .
Some jazz phrases run through my head.
I once played with a pianist who would open Real Book on his way to the hotel after a concert and sing themes from sheet music. Nice exercise.
I haven't tried it.

[Lionelsax]

Often when I don't have a guitar at hand, I sing .
Some jazz phrases run through my head.
I once played with a pianist who would open Real Book on his way to the hotel after a concert and sing themes from sheet music. Nice exercise.
I haven't tried it.

All classical trained musicians are able to do this, if they can't, something is missing.
I confess I'm supposed to do this but I don't do it.
My background is tonal harmony (baroque, classical and Romanticism) but I played other things.
I had been a tenor in vocal ensembles.
I did the job but it wasn't for me.
I'm afraid of vocal scores

Nowadays, I comp on piano and sing melodies without knowing the notes I'm singing.
When I see the score, I figure out I was right.
When I was a student, I was supposed to do the opposite.

I force myself to sing improvised lines with the names of the notes.
Sometimes it works when I think about them.
I'm better on bass lines because I had played the bass in a jazz style for a decade.

Now I understand why my colleagues were so good, they had a repertoire, they played a lot of things and sang them, they had a culture.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Looks like you're a better jazz player than Herb.
Do you have any guitar concert recordings of your own?
I'm very curious.

Who cares, Kris?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

It would be helpful if one could make a tidy, concise hypothesis. Last time I checked, the thread was noticing that musicians actually breath too. Whew. All over the map.

As a reminder - The first post mentioned that some do, some don't sing. It would appear that those who don't should be considered heretics.

I seem to recall someone opining that jazz was about freedom.

[Christian Miller]

Oh, just go and learn to play some music and come back when you can do that.

Or you could explore free improv i suppose.

the problem with saying jazz is freedom is you have to fully define and understand what other people mean by freedom and thats not always simple thing.

If your idea of freedom is self indulgence, then no. I don’t believe true freedom is self indulgence. So yes I think jazz is freedom, but it also comes with responsibilities; to the music, to the listener, to the song, and to your fellow musicians. And not to suck.

[kris]

It would be helpful if one could make a tidy, concise hypothesis. Last time I checked, the thread was noticing that musicians actually breath too. Whew. All over the map.

As a reminder - The first post mentioned that some do, some don't sing. It would appear that those who don't should be considered heretics.

I seem to recall someone opining that jazz was about freedom.

"Everyone can sing a little better or worse.'
If it's the case that some people sing while improvising and it helps them, then it's ok.
If someone sings during improvisation and it bothers them -just please explain why singing while improvising bothers and doesn't help.
I don't mean the listener, but the performer-musician.

[mr. beaumont]