Singing while improvising

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

No, no, no, no, no. That’s some twisted stuff right there.

[kris]

No, no, no, no, no. That’s some twisted stuff right there.

It's like talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about.
You pick on the word "singing" and I don't know what you want to prove.
We have already explained that it can be a different kind of "singing."
Some make strange noises, others hum, others sing more clearly, some falsify.
Education:

[Lionelsax]

The best thing to do is to try it Instead of living everything vicariously.
You will see what's happening, it's better if you record it.

[ragman1]

I have to say this idea of singing whilst playing is odd to me. But a lot of players do it and swear by it, so I don't know.

Basically, it stops you listening. Personally, when I play, I'm listening. I'm listening acutely to the background harmony and the notes I'm using, to see they match. If I was going la-la-la I wouldn't be able to hear properly, if at all. So I don't get that.

I've just hummed along to something I was playing (I'll spare you the sound clip!) and I can do it. Clever me, but so what? I don't see the point.

Someone tell me why it's so wonderful!

[kris]

I have to say this idea of singing whilst playing is odd to me. But a lot of players do it and swear by it, so I don't know.

Basically, it stops you listening. Personally, when I play, I'm listening. I'm listening acutely to the background harmony and the notes I'm using, to see they match. If I was going la-la-la I wouldn't be able to hear properly, if at all. So I don't get that.

I've just hummed along to something I was playing (I'll spare you the sound clip!) and I can do it. Clever me, but so what? I don't see the point.

Someone tell me why it's so wonderful!

If I were to explain it, you'd say it was a personal attack.
I can do it, only I know that it will end in a fight.
It does not make sense.
You don't like to sing, you don't like to practise, you don't play for the public.
You play for yourself.
isn't it?

[pauln]

My musical mind grasps and plays everything by ear

Any:
- singing
- foot tapping
- counting
- naming chords, or their types, or notes, etcetera
when I'm playing are distractions from listening to:
- what others are playing
- what I am intending to play (hearing in my head)
- what I play

This distraction isn't about volume, it's about the very
substance of it not being the music itself. I don't do it;
and that's OK however I'll probably have a bad dream
tonight of performing with a band where ALL of them
are singing what they play and tapping their feet ...

[Christian Miller]

Barry Harris told his students to pat their foot on 1 and 3 and sang all the lines in classes. The 1 and 3 thing for him came from dancing - that’s where you shift your weight, while 2 and 4 is about the upper body. The singing was an essential part of teaching.

(OTOH Ron Carter says you should pat your foot on 2 and 4 iirc. He is also widely regarded as quite good at music and apart from his storied career as a player has trained a lot of NYC bass players over the years.)

There’s always someone in the internet who wants to theorise why patting your foot or singing is bad, and yet one can find no shortage of great jazz musicians who do one or both.

Now, the advice to the contrary - Kenny Werner says that singing while playing is a manifestation of tension. I can’t remember what he says about foot patting, but I would expect it was similar. I like Kenny and think he gives generally good advice.

Lage Lund also said he prefers not to sing his lines because he feels this interferes with listening. I don’t think he pats his foot either.

so how to square the circle? Well the problem in both case is not singing or foot tapping being bad, but rather their being a symptom of tension in the body and/or lack of listening. If you think either of those things are a manifestation of that deeper problem, be aware of them. If not, maybe don’t hold it in?

[mheton]

thx @christianmiller. as always, …good thoughts to think about …

[ragman1]

Barry Harris told his students to pat their foot on 1 and 3 and sang all the lines in classes. The 1 and 3 thing for him came from dancing - that’s where you shift your weight, while 2 and 4 is about the upper body. The singing was an essential part of teaching.

(OTOH Ron Carter says you should pat your foot on 2 and 4 iirc. He is also quite good at music and has trained a lot of NYC bass players over the years.)

There’s always someone in the internet who wants to theorise why patting your foot or singing is bad, and yet one can find no shortage of great jazz musicians who do one or both.

Now, the advice to the contrary - Kenny Werner says that singing while playing is a manifestation of tension. I can’t remember what he says about foot patting, but I would expect it was similar. I like Kenny and think he gives generally good advice.

Lage Lund also said he prefers not to sing his lines because he feels this interferes with listening. I don’t think he pats his foot either.

so how to square the circle? Well the problem in both case is not singing or foot tapping being bad, but tension in the body and lack of listening, not singing or foot tapping. If you think either of those things are a manifestation of that deeper problem, be aware of them. If not, maybe don’t hold it in?

I'm with Lage Lund, it seems. But I've no objection to singing, of course. Opens the lungs :-)

[Christian Miller]

Kris, my friend, there's no personal attack. I don't do them. I'm not vulnerable to personal attack. There's no fight, that's all finished now. Please say what you like, I don't care what anybody says.

I was a singer long before I became an instrumentalist. I was offered a recording contract once and turned it down. I've done most things in music. It doesn't matter any more. All you actually know is what I do here. I don't gig, or record, or promote shows, or enter competitions (and win them), teach, or have bands any more, but I've done all those things and more. All you know is what I do here.

I'm older than you. These days I just sit at home on a computer and do what I do. I like it, it gives me satisfaction. I like to put down a backing and play over it. That's enough for me these days. If people like it, fine. If they don't, too bad, I don't care, really. I don't practice exercises, I don't like them, I find them mechanical. I play tunes. I'm still learning.

So, yes, I can sing, but that wasn't what the thread is about. It's about singing while you play, in unison with what you play, as some sort of musical education tool. I've said what I think about it. I'm not denying it because obviously some people think it's useful.

It's not quite true I play for myself only. I play here when there's a tune to play. So in that sense I do it for the forum. I do it for other people here too, to demonstrate something. You know I do that.

So, please, say what you want. Do you sing while you play? I don't think I've heard you. But my point wasn't a criticism of others, it was only to say it doesn't mean anything to me. If I'm humming along to my notes then I can't really listen to the backing. That's all I said.

So if you'd like to explain it, go ahead. I asked for someone to explain why they think it's useful for them. Why should I object? If it's their thing, that's fine, I don't mind. So tell me.

I think the idea is not to him along but let the singing/audiation do the driving.

I would advise someone working on this to practice singing the phrase first then play it; or sing while doing left hand fingering for the phrase then check. Glues down the instrument/ear connection.

the more advanced you are the presumably longer a phrase you can sing and then play*. Beginners start with single notes.

*bloody hell I should probably actually practice that instead of posting it lol

[ragman1]

I think the idea is not to him along but let the singing/audiation do the driving.

I would advise someone working on this to practice singing the phrase first then play it; or sing while doing left hand fingering for the phrase then check. Glues down the instrument/ear connection.

the more advanced you are the presumably longer a phrase you can sing and then play*. Beginners start with single notes.

*bloody hell I should probably actually practice that instead of posting it lol

I think that should have been hum...

I think the idea is not to him along but let the singing/audiation do the driving.

Wasn't the idea to sing as you play (not knowing what you were going to play) rather than do pre-set phrases?

[Christian Miller]

I think that should have been hum...



Wasn't the idea to sing as you play (not knowing what you were going to play) rather than do pre-set phrases?

No, otherwise you end up meandering playing note to note and noodling around.

It’s better to hear in complete phrases with a beginning middle and end because that’s how music works by and large. Tristano as I said had students working on singing entire (recorded) solos before playing them.

it’s best not to take the improvisation thing too literally. Skilled improvisers do not make music one note at a time without any forethought or strategy any more than composers do. Also, most often they are playing a variation of a thing rather than a brand new thing.

Besides an important aspect of playing structured true improvisation is being able to remember what you played and vary it. Improving riffs is another simple way to develop that. It’s also a good idea for comping.

So as you develop, it’s good to develop a higher level way of hearing you music than just note, note, note or stringing licks together (although that’s a valid first step)

Theres obviously a trade off between this type of exercise (sing/play) and the reality of soloing (where you are hearing and playing at the same time, and also responding to what other musicians are doing; but the former seems good prep for the latter. It’s a pretty common way to work actually, most jazz educators seem to have a version of this. Sing/play is also a good way out of getting guitarists to stop noodling and into playing with intention

you can sing your own stuff, and if lacking in inspiration sing someone else’s. It’s interesting how the latter can get the creative juices flowing as well as training the ear. It’s a great cure for musical introspection.

[ragman1]

So you're not talking about this kind of thing, then? I suppose this is scat, really. But is it spontaneous? I think it's spontaneous, even though he may be using stuff he's used before.

Go to 1.20 ish.

[Christian Miller]

So you're not talking about this kind of thing, then? I suppose this is scat, really. But is it spontaneous...?

I’m talking about practicing music not performing it. The quality of the singing is neither there nor there. It’s a tool, nothing more.

Re spontaneity- how would I know, and why should I care?

[Christian Miller]

As a side issue, the best way to practice improvisation is not necessarily to improvise. I wish I’d learned that a long time ago.

[docsteve]

Sing/play is also a good way out of getting guitarists to stop noodling and into playing with intention

I second that, Ever since I got my first George Benson record at age fifteen, I practiced singing (scatting) and playing along. Whenever I do it, I feel my playing is much better, but I get funny looks from my bandmates. That's when the singing drove the playing.

After 40 years or so, I can do it the other way round too - let the playing drive the singing. But that is probably because now I know how the stuff is going to sound that my fingers are putting out. (Does that make sense?)

[Christian Miller]

I second that, Ever since I got my first George Benson record at age fifteen, I practiced singing (scatting) and playing along. Whenever I do it, I feel my playing is much better, but I get funny looks from my bandmates. That's when the singing drove the playing.

After 40 years or so, I can do it the other way round too - let the playing drive the singing. But that is probably because now I know how the stuff is going to sound that my fingers are putting out. (Does that make sense?)

yeah. I sometimes catch myself singing. But tbh the aim is not necessarily to sing and play on gigs. After you get good at driving the playing with singing, the idea would be to practice ‘singing’ internally. That’s certainly worth working on, but I feel the value of singing out loud, like counting rhythms out loud helps keep you accountable so you know you are doing it right. It’s not that that’s what you want to end up doing.

You absolutely could do the internal thing from the outset and skip the singing stage of it (like jazz journey suggests) but you need to be really honest with yourself. It’s amazing how often you think you know something and then through the process of having to sing or count it out, realise that you don’t.

[davidcellist]

Xian everything you have outlined is so true - every musical phrase is a movement with a start/middle/ending.

[ragman1]

I’m talking about practicing music not performing it. The quality of the singing is neither there nor there. It’s a tool, nothing more.

Re spontaneity- how would I know, and why should I care?

Well, you should care only insofar as it relates to the discussion. But, if we stick to the practicing of music, it seems we're talking about pre-formulating lines and singing them because it might make their performance sound more fluid. I mean, I don't know. Personally, as you know, I have a horror of pre-formulated lines.

As a side issue, the best way to practice improvisation is not necessarily to improvise. I wish I’d learned that a long time ago.

Yes, I think I'd go with that.

I haven't really analysed it but I almost certainly play as though I were singing it.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Well in truth we've talked about it every which way, from:

1. audible scat singing in unison, to
2. audible moaning, to
3. silence = singing, as long as we're thinking.

The last one works for me (it's really just "thinking"). An analogy would be reading a book in a library. If you elected to do option 3 that would be just fine, but if you elected to do either option 1 or 2, they'd tell you "shhh", or ask you to leave.

Onward and upward.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

It's like talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about.
You pick on the word "singing" and I don't know what you want to prove.
We have already explained that it can be a different kind of "singing."
Some make strange noises, others hum, others sing more clearly, some falsify.
Education:

OK, some logic and definition issues here:

Background: In this thread we're talking about singing while improvising (improvising being the "Innovation" step, using the Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate paradigm)

1. He starts out talking about copying "master solos" (solos from the masters) - OK. but that's Imitation.
2. He makes an analogy to student artists drawing sketches of masterworks, while in a museum. Again that's Imitation, but the analogy is even weaker, because they're actually using their hands, pencil, and canvas. In other words, their imitation is direct - not indirect. Singing a master solo would be direct for a singer, while playing a master solo (something we are also strongly advised to do) is direct for a musician.

I stopped the instructional video (not "master class", or even "class"), so I don't know if he ever got to assimilation or innovation. Only so much time in a day for false equivalence.

[kris]

Christian has basically already written everything about it.
I'll add... I had solfege lessons at music school.
Why these lessons if it's not too learning to sing...?
All these exercises/plus ear training/ come down to singing by future instrumentalists.
The exam for music school for beginners was that I had to sing something, not play it
The voice is an instrument that everyone has.
By practicing voice-singing, you become musical and then transfer it to the instrument.
That is why 'singing" by instrumentalists is so important.
Well, you know, instrumentalists are not singers.They do come up like that though.
I was talking about education in a classical music school.
You can now translate all this into jazz music education and come to the right conclusions.
Jazz music puts great demands on the musician.
You become the composer in real time while playing.
Therefore, you have to use all your senses to do it well.
I can write endlessly.

[kris]

OK, some logic and definition issues here:

Background: In this thread we're talking about singing while improvising (improvising being the "Innovation" step, using the Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate paradigm)

1. He starts out talking about copying "master solos" (solos from the masters) - OK. but that's Imitation.
2. He makes an analogy to student artists drawing sketches of masterworks, while in a museum. Again that's Imitation, but the analogy is even weaker, because they're actually using their hands, pencil, and canvas. In other words, their imitation is direct - not indirect. Singing a master solo would be direct for a singer, while playing a master solo (something we are also strongly advised to do) is direct for a musician.

I stopped the instructional video (not "master class", or even "class"), so I don't know if he ever got to assimilation or innovation. Only so much time in a day for false equivalence.

You don't even understand what this video is about. Mercy.
ps.
A practice method for the future instrumentalist is shown.
You don't know what it is for?

[Christian Miller]

Eh. Some people think they know it all, but it doesn’t matter what they think because it’s how they play that’s important.

Like the student who said to Jimmy Raney ‘I want to be original’. Jimmy - ‘but you cant play yet’

You will find the same thing for every tradition … I think most people who are serious get that, on this forum for example.

[kris]

"You'll use your voice more/'singing"/- you'll play better...."
That's what an older, experienced music teacher told me.
....but it was a school of classical music...