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Ugh, that word "leader."
Originally Posted by ragman1
I didn't ever really consider something that needed to be led, yes, I started it, but once I picked a few tunes at the beginning I did try to hand it off to others, mostly to avoid that "leader" feeling.
I have no stake in the game anymore as I haven't participated in a good long while, but I do think, as it was originally intended, that the Virtual Jam has served it's purpose and run it's course. It was getting away from the original intention anyway-- which was always just to "react" to the tune as in the moment as possible, and put together a solo statement, like you would at a jam if someone nodded to you that it was your turn to play. And with that of course, comes the ability to just sit one (or a few) out.
But it's all good. Maybe, if anything, what we can do now is just go all the way back and start pulling these tunes apart "Practical Standards" style-- as remember the other intent was to look at jazz tunes by jazz artists and not GASB tunes. "Practical Jazz Tunes" if you will. With nearly 2 years of weekly tunes, taking a month on each now will give us the next 8 years or so of practice fodder.
Just a thought.
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11-30-2022 10:03 AM
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Hey Rag... you might be right, maybe no one was leading, but someone was picking tunes and starting each week.
I get that no one wants the responsibility etc... But beyond blaming everything on the pandemic or something else, maybe that is what the thread needs, someone to be in charge and not be polite and babysit etc...
Your Moses pic... LOL is in the wrong direction, right. You don't want someone who can BS or post vids or pics of performances etc... Sometimes it take being able to actually do what one is talking about. There are probable many players on this forum who can.... but just don't have the time or want to take all the BS that will come from being in that position. Personally I don't have the time, but don't really care about the BS, It's part of the fun, which is why I thought I would try and fit it in my schedule next year.
I joined this forum to musically educate and help guitarist get better... I don't need gigs, lessons, $ etc... But I can cover the playing and theory aspects that usually helps musicians get better. I would gladly not take over... and just start a new thread next year and get into other musical details of playing tunes... I do know that if I do take over... the BS backing tracks will be gone...LOL.
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Reg, with all due respect, you're missing the point of the virtual jams (repeatedly), and your comments about it are non sequiter. There are plenty of other threads that involve explanation and instruction. The VJ was simply about playing tunes on a regular cadence without too much talk (beyond encouraging each other to play), with a focus specifically on jazz tunes (as opposed to GASB tunes adapted by jazzers). Initially, Jeff was "leading" by picking ("calling") tunes. It then transitioned into Jeff asking other people to propose tunes, which he then posted weekly. Originally Posted by Reg
Ragman took over that role at the beginning of the year. For whatever reasons (not worth re-hashing at this point), participation dropped from a dozen-ish people a week posting takes to 2 or 3. Ragman gave up (after one of many rounds of people spoiling the fun with excessive discussion, arguing, and general talking past each other). I then took it over briefly to see if maybe someone else "calling" tunes would bring more people in. It didn't. Nevershouldhavesoldit tried his luck, to little avail. If someone else wants to try to revive, it they're welcome to. If you (or someone else) want to start up a different thread with an instructional focus, go for it. But it's beside the point to piss on what we were doing for own enjoyment on the grounds it wasn't instructional enough or properly led.
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Good synopsis of the way things unfolded. I had a tiny role in starting this group in that on the (I think) Practical Standards group (?) I asked about a group focusing on "jazz originals" like Joyspring or Grooveyard. Jeff took the initiative and launched the group, and for me it was really fun for the first year. As you say, the talk began to get irritating. It's easy to say "Well don't read those posts." But frankly I like good conversation about playing music and always hoped we'd get that along the way, and I don't like just posting and running. So in the end, I got discouraged with the whole project and just kind of faded away for no particular reason. For me it had nothing to do with COVID isolation. It was about wanting to study some of these great "jazz originals." I think learning "Nica's Dream" and "Unit Seven" were among my favorite moments here. Originally Posted by John A.
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Hi, Jeff. Sorry to hark on the word leader. I'm glad we agree! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Ugh, that word "leader."
I didn't ever really consider something that needed to be led, yes, I started it, but once I picked a few tunes at the beginning I did try to hand it off to others, mostly to avoid that "leader" feeling.
I have no stake in the game anymore as I haven't participated in a good long while, but I do think, as it was originally intended, that the Virtual Jam has served it's purpose and run it's course. It was getting away from the original intention anyway-- which was always just to "react" to the tune as in the moment as possible, and put together a solo statement, like you would at a jam if someone nodded to you that it was your turn to play. And with that of course, comes the ability to just sit one (or a few) out.
But it's all good. Maybe, if anything, what we can do now is just go all the way back and start pulling these tunes apart "Practical Standards" style-- as remember the other intent was to look at jazz tunes by jazz artists and not GASB tunes. "Practical Jazz Tunes" if you will. With nearly 2 years of weekly tunes, taking a month on each now will give us the next 8 years or so of practice fodder.
Just a thought.
At some point on the PS threads I did suggest that it also became a place where people shared their views of the tune, how they approached it, maybe some theoretical stuff they used or thought was important... there was absolute silence. It was never taken up, no one was interested.
Just a thought, maybe things have changed :-)
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My mistake, sorry.
Thanks Reg
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As I tried to explain before by counting on the various threads, that dwindling had already occurred by the time I got here. At least 10 people had already vanished and most of the others had become occasionals. The posts are still there if you want to check. Originally Posted by John A.
I gave up because it was lifeless. wzp said it was 'starting to feel like more of a chore these days'. Quite right. And both you and never experienced the same. And that's why we're here.Last edited by ragman1; 11-30-2022 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Getting wzp's quote right
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Not me, I never put a single tune of my own choice up. All the tunes came from the participants, posted in strict order of receipt. Originally Posted by Reg
Oh, so do I. The trouble there is that they're all very happy to use the facilities as long as they're provided for them. I'd be more impressed if everyone contributed in a positive and proactive way to make it a thriving and creatively energetic arena. But that might be asking a bit much.I get that no one wants the responsibility
It wasn't about 'blaming' it on the pandemic. We were all in lockdown and stuck at home without a creative outlet with others except the internet. Many, many famous musos did stuff from home and sent it out to the world. It's a fact.beyond blaming everything on the pandemic
Why? Are you saying the guys here have no mind of their own? That they need to be marshalled, taught, organised by someone else? Maybe some might prefer that but I doubt if the majority would. I hope not, anyway. Most of them are intelligent people with families, jobs and responsibilities.maybe that is what the thread needs, someone to be in charge and not be polite and babysit etc..
Just a joke, Reg, although I confess it had a serious point. We need a Big Person to lead us out of the wilderness! Not my idea, of course :-)Your Moses pic
I don't think anyone here BS's. Not as far as I know anyway.You don't want someone who can BS
There are already contributors here who can. Do you mean to say players like Jeff, Kris, nevershouldhavesoldit, John, Robespier, JimmySmith, Ronstuff, etc, can't play? Or don't know their stuff? Where have you been?Sometimes it take being able to actually do what one is talking about. There are probable many players on this forum who can
Possibly, I wouldn't know. If they allowed it, of course.I can cover the playing and theory aspects that usually helps musicians get better
Good luck with that. I think you'd get some resistance there.I do know that if I do take over... the BS backing tracks will be gone..
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Can’t we all just keep posting random tunes wherever and whenever we want? That’s what I’ve been doing and hope to continue doing as long as that doesn’t get me booted from the realm. Cheers!
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NO! You must stop that immediately! Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
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When somebody posts a song "randomly" I generally don't think "Hey I need to shed that tune a bit and post my own version." That's what the VJ and PS groups are about. Of course, you could always put up a clip and then say "Hey everybody, I'd love to hear your take on this tune!" That would be splendid and might just be the best all around solution. Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
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I've already suggested that, except it's all on one thread. It would make a nice collection. Mind you, I don't expect any takers because it's not FOR anything. It helps if it's FOR something :-) Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
Post your faves here!
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Reg for jam leader. :P
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Can I ask you all something?
What is it you all want? There's obviously a level of dissatisfaction, frustration, discontent, call it what you will. But what do you actually want?
The original VJ was a reaction to being cooped up with Covid, lockdown, and all that, but that's gone now. But you're obviously all asking for something. To continue in the same pattern as before? Someone provides a tune and you all play it? But that's been tried again at least twice now and gone nowhere.
State what you actually want, specifically, then see if it can be provided. The trouble is I don't think you know, there's just this sort of general discontent, grumbling, and so on. But that may well have its roots in causes unrelated to the forum, I wouldn't know.
Do answer this because this is becoming endless. Is it the weather? Is it because winter's coming? I don't know!
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I already wrote what I think about it - further beating foam is just a waste of time.
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Yea... I'll just start a new thread. Don't want it to be complicated. Anyone will be welcome etc...
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Just to keep things straight, I did not experience the same and have not said that. I don't think I've said anything remotely resembling "lifeless" or "like a chore" (at least I don't think I did, since I don't feel that way). I just reread 94 (StarEyes) and I don't see anything like that in my posts. Originally Posted by ragman1
I only had 1 post in 95:
Here's my only quasi-editorial comment in VJ96, and it's neither negative nor judgmental. I was just trying to help by adding the next tune, since we were 3 days past due with no explanation offered. I thought it'd be presumptious of me to just put up a tune without explaining why I was taking the liberty of doing so. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
On October 20, I read VJ91 thread and wanted to respond to the 3 pages of discussion on the viability of the VJ. It was our last day abroad after being away for almost 3 weeks without a guitar, and the VJ was clearly starting to wear thin on some. I don't think there's anything negative in this one either: Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
And earlier in this thread, I said: Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I'm happy to stand behind my words - but only those I actually said. Since it was suggested yesterday, I just posted a solo track on the Practical Standards "My One and Only Love" thread using Jeff's original guidelines for the VJ - pick up the guitar and play. I agree with Mark K and Phil Knight - just do it. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I'm not into arguments, never. I meant that both you and John tried to bring it to life again and it didn't work, that's all. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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And no one's answered my question yet:
'Can I ask you all something?
What is it you all want? There's obviously a level of dissatisfaction, frustration, discontent, call it what you will. But what do you actually want?
The original VJ was a reaction to being cooped up with Covid, lockdown, and all that, but that's gone now. But you're obviously all asking for something. To continue in the same pattern as before? Someone provides a tune and you all play it? But that's been tried again at least twice now and gone nowhere.
State what you actually want, specifically, then see if it can be provided. The trouble is I don't think you know, there's just this sort of general discontent, grumbling, and so on. But that may well have its roots in causes unrelated to the forum, I wouldn't know.
Do answer this because this is becoming endless. Is it the weather? Is it because winter's coming? I don't know!'
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I did answer this more than once: I would like to have a weekly cadence of jazz tunes, with several to many people sharing takes. Discussion kept brief, in a positive, encouraging spirit. I liked this more than, say, Jam of the Week on Facebook because it felt like we got to know each other and each other’s playing better, and because it was helping me expand my repertoire. Originally Posted by ragman1
It’s clearly not gonna happen, so I’m happy to drop it. I have real-world jamming and performing opportunities, and will find other ways to shed new tunes.
I absolutely do not want to get caught in the crossfire of any more arguments.
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I know you have, but it would be nice if everyone involved here said what they wanted, not just one lone voice. Originally Posted by John A.
Then don't be, John, just neatly sidestep and all will be well :-)I absolutely do not want to get caught in the crossfire of any more arguments.
There's actually nothing to argue about, from my viewpoint anyway. The VJ was a lockdown thing which, when it over, was over. Thou shalt not kill, but needs't not strive officiously to keep alive. But that's what we were trying to do and inevitably it hasn't worked. Why we can't just accept the fact I don't know.
Something else will turn up, always does. After all, what were we all posting about prior to the VJ?
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I think the drama is funny but have the opposite view. I think you guys obviously like it so should keep it going. It doesn't matter if participation is low, it could pick up. Look at the standards thread. It was only me and rag in there for months and I didn't get all despondent and start a giant debate about the situation. :P
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At this point "everyone involved” = you, wzpgr, Kris, and me. The only ones who haven’t said they want are you and Kris. Coincidentally, you two were also the ones who argued the most, and who continue to keep this thread alive. Mr. Pot, allow me to introduce Mrs. Kettle. I’m out. Originally Posted by ragman1
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John, this is what you said: Originally Posted by John A.
In other words you want to go back in time and have things the way they were before. But that was in Covid (he repeats for the millionth time). When Covid was over nearly all the contributors vanished and went back to their outside lives.I would like to have a weekly cadence of jazz tunes, with several to many people sharing takes. Discussion kept brief, in a positive, encouraging spirit.
That left a handful of people who wanted to continue with the same idea. I never liked that because it was a thing of its time and was over. But the cry was loud so I took it on.
Eventually it just dried up. The dissent started on the James thread beginning with yourself. You said this:
In other words you were saying the same thing as you are now. And I answered that 101%. Everybody did. But it had lost its spirit (to repeat it again and again and gain).But I have to wonder what's going on with the drop-off in participation. Is it the tunes? Are the people who were participating before just otherwise occupied or no longer on the forum? Have some of the dust-ups that happened soured the experience and driven people off? I mean if it's just two or three people putting up posts, I wonder whether this has run its course. It would be great to have something close to the 8-10 people posting we had before, and I'd be interested finding out what might get us there.
Wzpgsr, especially, said this:
All you're doing is living in hope of some sort of resurrection. I don't think you're actually doing it for anyone else, it's just something you want; it's an idea you can't let go of.We had a solid, committed group for an entire year—which I think is quite an accomplishment for an online "study group" situation—followed by slowly dwindling participation as the second year has progressed.
I think I am ready for something new. The pattern that has developed for me is one in which I scramble to learn the changes well enough to record something, get really interested in a tune, and then have to set it aside to move on to the next one. I hate to say it, but it's perhaps starting to feel like more of a chore these days
It's also illogical. What you want is to have tunes to play but your repeated desire is that there be lots and lots of people at the party. The chances of that happening are virtually nil because the lockdown is over, and lockdown was the main reason for its success.
Personally I'm totally bored with repeating the screamingly obvious to deaf ears.
My best tip: Keep posting the tunes religiously every week/fortnightly and hope for the best. If it happens, it happens, you never know.
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