JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 88) - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat

[ragman1]

This one from wzpgsr.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

The original changes according to trombonist Ed Byrne who played with Mingus.

[ragman1]

The changes in that sheet are the same as the RB changes, except this one has got all the extensions/alterations added. Which, I admit, might enhance a performance considerably, especially a solo chord melody.

But, to be honest, I don't like the idea of having different changes for the improv, it's all a bit of a nuisance. But it does say at the top 'arr. Ed Byrne' and it is very analytical. So whose ideas are they actually, Mingus' or Byrne's?

I think I'll probably just play the RB stuff, it's easier :-)

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[…] But, to be honest, I don't like the idea of having different changes for the improv, it's all a bit of a nuisance. But it does say at the top 'arr. Ed Byrne' and it is very analytical. So whose ideas are they actually, Mingus' or Byrne's? […]

If I was to play an original jazz composition, I would always go back and listen to the source, instead of just looking into the Real Book. There are some tunes that have different changes for the head and the improvisation and Goodbye Pork Pie Hat is one of them.

Just listen to the first version recorded version by Mingus:

If you exchange the minor major seventh chords in Ed Byrne’s transcription with minor sixth chords everything becomes much simpler

Mingus wasn’t always as generous with his art as he seems to have been with Ed according to what Ed writes in the link. I will look for an interview with the sax player who played on the original recording.

The second studio version recorded by Mingus:

And the third one (Philippe Catherine and Larry Coryell on this one BTW):

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[…] I will look for an interview with the sax player who played on the original recording. […]

Here it is. The relevant section starts around 1h 6min. (BTW Jake Feinbergs “yo, soul brother” interview style can really get on one’s nerves but he has always interesting conversation partners who have something to say.)

EDIT: What I really meant starts at 1h 13min

EDIT 2: I hadn’t watched this since I discovered it two or three years ago. I had forgotten what a funny guy and great storyteller John Handy is (he is still alive). He is even funnier than Jimmy Heath and Benny Golson together. Those YouTube channels with tons of interviews like the “Jake Feinberg Show” and the “Filius Jazz Archives at Hamilton College” are true treasure chests. As most of the interviewees have passed in the last 30 years or so through these interviews they have become my (in a double sense) virtually channeled mentors.

[ragman1]

Bop Head -

Thanks for your brilliant reply. I'll get stuck into it!

(Saying I'll settle for the RB isn't as lazy or naive as it probably seems. I've known this tune for years and, as they say, still learning :-))

[ragman1]

I've listened. I can see the point of using other changes for the solo. I think I'd go for the first Mingus recording, personally. I mean, everybody seems to have their own take on this tune. There's something for everybody - screaming rock guitar, 'free' warbling on the jazz saxes, acoustic versions by Bert Jansch & Co, you name it. All a matter of personal taste ultimately, I think.

It's not a secret that Mingus could be unpleasantly moody so the Handy inteview (when he wasn't being shouted at!) wasn't a surprise. But good interview.

I've done this tune several ways over the years but I decided long ago that I wasn't just going to play F blues over the whole thing. Then there's getting some colour into the chords derived from the melody... and all that. In the end I thought 'this is a ballad' so I play it that way.

There are some versions that use a lot of chordal stuff to embellish the melody. I haven't tried it but I envy it. One day maybe. I suppose I'm just a plodder, I plod round it and hope it sounds okay. I shouldn't think it'll interest many people but I like doing it. I hope I've avoided the cliché of playing the head beautifully and then it all falls apart... hopefully :-)

Anyway, I just did this a few minutes ago. It is what it is. I did steal one thing from the transcription, it ends on an Fsus, not an F7. Much better.

Thanks again for your solid input, by the way.

[mr. beaumont]

Always good to point out--if nobody else has already-- this tune is just a REALLY hip blues.

[grahambop]

Interestingly the Mingus Dynasty version uses the ‘head’ changes for the solos too.

[ragman1]

Ah, yes, the warbling sax! Probably one reason I thought better versions didn't use the head changes.

Have you any thoughts on this tune or is it just an interesting dirge? I mean, as a composition it's pretty clever to fit the Fm blues pentatonic over all those disparate chords.

[grahambop]

Well I suppose you have to decide whether to solo on the simpler ‘soloing’ changes, or over the ‘head’ changes. The former is easier, the latter is more tricky. Having said that, it’s not easy to capture the mood that Mingus’ group got soloing on those ‘simpler’ changes.

I don’t know which approach I would attempt, to be honest. Maybe doing both in one solo would be cool. For the ‘head’-type changes I would just try and target all those dominant chords with appropriate dominant lines. Use my ears basically, I don’t have a formula for it really.

Re. Joe Farrell’s solo, that Mingus Dynasty was one of the first jazz records I bought, I enjoy hearing how he negotiates those difficult changes so well. Not ‘warbling sax’ to me!

In fact I saw him once in London with Woody Shaw, he was a superb player.

[mr. beaumont]

Here's a version I did some time ago, where I attempt playing on the head changes...kind of, I guess.

I hope I can find time to do a new one. It's a beautiful tune.

[grahambop]

Ireal pro seems to have a reasonable chart for the changes, including the simpler ‘soloing’ changes.

[mr. beaumont]

There's a lot of versions of this tune i love...this might be my favorite.

[ragman1]

Well I suppose you have to decide whether to solo on the simpler ‘soloing’ changes, or over the ‘head’ changes.

I'm going to do the other changes too.

Sorry about your warbling bloke, I don't go for that diddle-dee stuff much. Personal taste, I guess :-)

Apparently Ebm was the original key but Fm seemed good enough to me. According to the John Handy interview Mingus came in and gave the chart only to the piano player, not the others. I'd love to know what was on it!

(I knew the moment I saw this was the tune, I thought here we go! )

[ragman1]

[video]

There's a lot of versions of this tune i love...this might be my favorite.

It's only for Music Premium people on You Tube but I caught it on Spotify. You're right, it's nice, very melodic. Good version.

[ragman1]

I've done it again using Graham's chart, only in Dm. Two heads, two solos, one head and the Coda. It is what it is :-)

[John A.]

Been pretty busy and had to sit the last few out. Back for now. The backing track I found for this (I think a pirated Aebersold) uses the same changes as iReal, which (so far as I can tell) match the version of Ah Um (in Eb). Good enough for me. As per my usual, I accentuate the "just a really hip blues" aspects.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[…] Having said that, it’s not easy to capture the mood that Mingus’ group got soloing on those ‘simpler’ changes. […]

if you refer to the Ah Um recording it has probably to do with only the pianist Horace Parlan having the music as the only one in the band as John Handy described in the interview I posted above. I rethought this and possibly this came not from being mean because of Mingus’ mental illness in this case (like other bad things described in the interview) but could have been a trick to force the musicians to rely on their ears fully spontaneously. Another factor adding to the intensity might be the fact that they were running out of tape which increased the pressure.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I have posted a Horace Parlan (pianist who played on Ah Um) docu here.

[wzpgsr]

Been pretty busy and had to sit the last few out. Back for now. The backing track I found for this (I think a pirated Aebersold) uses the same changes as iReal, which (so far as I can tell) match the version of Ah Um (in E). Good enough for me. As per my usual, I accentuate the "just a fancy blues" aspects.

Welcome back, fantastic take. That tone is outstanding.

[John A.]

Welcome back, fantastic take. That tone is outstanding.

Thanks, and looking forward to yours. Signal chain is my D’Angelico EXDC into GarageBand’s Super Reverb amp model into its Twin Reverb cabinet model with a little stereo delay and reverb.

[ragman1]

Beautiful Italian version in Gbm.

See, apparently Mingus heard of Lester's passing and originally came up with the tune in Cm. Then walked in with it in Ebm. But he didn't give the chords to the band, and they couldn't really do it, so they just changed it to a minor blues and did it that way.

And here we are, bravely trying to copy the thing like it was sacrosanct... all rather silly, really. So -

[John A.]

Beautiful Italian version in Gbm.

See, apparently Mingus heard of Lester's passing and originally came up with the tune in Cm. Then walked in with it in Ebm. But he didn't give the chords to the band, and they couldn't really do it, so they just changed it to a minor blues and did it that way.

And here we are, bravely trying to copy the thing like it was sacrosanct... all rather silly, really. So -

Who is doing that? (Not I, said the fly).

[ragman1]

Dunno, some jerk thinks he can play the guitar. Let me at him, I know KARATE!