From transcribing to improvisation

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I studied at Rutgers with Ted Dunbar in the ‘70’s and every day there was hours of ear training. Certainly top priority in his teaching approach. I don’t recall transcribing ever being mentioned. If he had said do it I would have without question- I was a complete disciple.

[kris]

I bought a book in the early 1980s written by Ted Dunbar.

[AlsoRan]

Gary Barton,Jesse van Ruller-I don't think they're in favor of transcribing.
I think I read about it somewhere.
Jesse -I think he studied the one solo of Pat Martino - Just Friends - that's it.

I think you are right about Jesse, kris. Dutchbopper wrote in his blog about Jesse Van Ruller's answer when he was asked about transcribing.

Here is the interview that was captured.

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: Interview with Jesse van Ruller

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Transcribing is probably the most sure fire way to rapidly acquire sufficient skills to make you sound like you know what you’re doing. Is this your goal? If this is your goal then by all means have at it. It’s undoubtedly the most common approach employed by the most people. It’s all good for anyone whose goals are aligned.

[bako]

Mark,

Cool to hear you also came up through Ted Dunbar.
I spent a couple of years with him at Jazzmobile in the same decade.
Ted forever will live inside of me from that time spent.

Much appreciation for your approach and the musical results that you share.

Question:

What does listening to music mean for you in regards to what you strive to do as an improvisor?

[Marinero]

The late great pianist, Willie Pickens, with whom I studied improvisation as a saxophonist at the Chicago Conservatory Music in the early 70's, would allow you to pick out a song of your choice and then write the solos for playing and discussion at your next lesson. From those solos, your lessons began.
Marinero

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Mark,

Cool to hear you also came up through Ted Dunbar.
I spent a couple of years with him at Jazzmobile in the same decade.
Ted forever will live inside of me from that time spent.

Much appreciation for your approach and the musical results that you share.

Question:

What does listening to music mean for you in regards to what you strive to do as an improvisor?

When I listen to music I want to hear some original thinking. That’s what I’m striving for and if others are like minded it’s stimulating. Absent that, I move in. Technical wizardry can be engaging for a short time, but once I see the machinery I lose interest. The best music defies my intellectual understanding. Analysis fails to explain. It seems to just come from somewhere else deep in subconsciousness. That’s what I’m looking for- the zone. It’s often subtle and only slightly different than “the style” of something familiar, but there’s always something extra.

[charlieparker]

I studied at Rutgers with Ted Dunbar in the ‘70’s and every day there was hours of ear training. Certainly top priority in his teaching approach. I don’t recall transcribing ever being mentioned. If he had said do it I would have without question- I was a complete disciple.

Can you elaborate on the kind of ear training? Was it Barry Harris like where he plays a phrase and you repeat it back?

[Alter]

I have generally seen two kinds of players regarding transcription. Those who grew up with jazz music (or started playing guitar with jazz ) and don't really need it, because that's all they know to play and hear, they already know the language.

And then those who either came to jazz from other styles (I'm in that camp!), or they haven't heard enough of it. These usually benefit greatly from doing transcriptions, I have seen people do one solo a week and in a few months they can play jazz..

When transcribing, I might just play with the solo, picking up phrases here and there. If you actually learn the whole solo, you learn so much more, ideas, balance, structure, development, etc. Then if you actually learn it good enough to play with the album, you learn details about timing, feel, dynamics, etc.

I try to play a solo for at least one month after I finish it, to really let it sink in and stuff. Ideally I like to spend some time daily either picking up solos from CDs or reading them from books.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Can you elaborate on the kind of ear training? Was it Barry Harris like where he plays a phrase and you repeat it back?

. Ted and Barry were friends and I think they compared notes about teaching frequently. We did the ping pong back and forth of mimicry but also call and response to train logical conversation rather than parroting. Ted would like to play a dense voicing with his back turned so you could see his hands. We’d have to name the chord, play it and then play some lines to go with. He liked to call these his flash cards.

[2bornot2bop]

I've been doing transcribing but I haven't seen any payoff in my improvisations.

Basically, I just transcribe stuff and hope I absorb things by osmosis.

What are some suggestions for getting more out of transcribing?

Do you all isolate specific phrases and practice them through all keys?

Chop wood, carry water. Repeat.

Keep applying yourself daily. Baby steps.

[vintagelove]

I think there is a place for transcribing an entire chorus or solo. That is when you encounter a player who is completely foreign to you own musical instincts, and when there is a feel you encounter and don’t yet have. I rarely do it, but here are 2 examples.


First, Eric Dolphy’s break on take the A train. When I first heard this break, it blew my freaking mind. The note choice (he is absolutely playing the changes), the rhythm… I had to get inside it. Doing so, with a bunch of listening changed my musical life.

The next was discovering the amazing sax player below. Just completely not what I would play. I wanted to understand it, and feel it. Just so different… Now, it’s not so different.

start at 3:42