JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 80) - Monk's Dream

[ragman1]

I'm not sure I'm the right person to be answering this because I use a different style but I'll do my best. I could tell you it was wonderful and avoid all kinds of trouble in this place but I won't, it would be unproductive.

Did I hear the melody? To be honest, not much. I'm not even sure what you were trying to do. What I think is that you had a fixed idea in mind, a modus operandi, and it was interfering with your playing freely. Instead of settling what you were going to do over the changes in a general sense, the idea in your head was limiting your action, if you see what I mean. Instead of just playing as you felt, your mind was trying to force what you were doing into a certain formula and so limiting and hindering any free flow.

I don't know if I'm being clear, probably I'm not, but there's sense behind this. When we get a firm idea or pattern beforehand and then try to make what we do conform to it, it acts as a block. The results never quite match what we had in mind.

I think the problem most of the time in improvisation is to know what we're doing but, at the same time, to play without hindrance. Trying to imitate definite patterns leads to frustration but playing freely is joyful. Which does not mean playing nonsense all over the place.

The bridge isn't a problem, it's just C7 for a long time. That can be broken into its ii, Gm, and stuff like that. It's the A sections that are probably problematical. But one can have a general idea and then let rip, as it were. That's not the same as following a rigid, pre-set formula which is going to paralyse the fingers.

It's a sort of 'middle way' approach, without wanting to be too Zen about it. Do you see what I mean? It's not a criticism, I'm trying to be helpful. Have the overview, then let go and play as you feel.

I know, it's all very difficult.

[grahambop]

It got different over the course of three nights, but not sure it got any better - thanks for bearing with me on my little journey of trying to be more conscious of the melody while soloing. Comments / criticisms welcome—can you hear the melody?

I thought that was pretty good. You played the head very well, then I felt that the first couple of A sections were a bit tentative/awkward, but from the bridge onwards it all went up a gear and was good from then on. I could hear the influence of the melody in those descending phrases you were using.

I’ve been learning the tune but I don’t know if I’ll have time to do it today, I’ve been out and about all week. There’s a useful descending line in the A sections, the 3rd descends chromatically from E to D at first, then the third time it goes down chromatically all the way from E to B (on the G7), you can get some mileage by hanging ideas around that. I think I can hear some of that in what Charlie Rouse plays. Really it seems to me that he and Monk are not worrying too much in detail about the changes, they are just sort of following the melodic descending thread somehow. Which I think you were doing too.

Actually Monk quotes bits of the melody during about 50% of his solo, at least that's what it sounds like!

[John A.]

It got different over the course of three nights, but not sure it got any better - thanks for bearing with me on my little journey of trying to be more conscious of the melody while soloing. Comments / criticisms welcome—can you hear the melody?

I thought that sounded great. I can definitely sense the melody and form, and I think you do an excellent job of referring to the harmony without overdoing or giving a sense of straining to hit the changes. Tone and recording quality are great, too. My one “criticism” is that I think it could use a little more variety of phrasing, e.g. a burst or two of 16ths or a longer run of notes here or there.

[wzpgsr]

I'm not sure I'm the right person to be answering this because I use a different style but I'll do my best. I could tell you it was wonderful and avoid all kinds of trouble in this place but I won't, it would be unproductive.

Fair comments, thank you. I appreciate the time. I was definitely being hyperconscious and intentionally trying to adhere to Bernstein's advice. I very often swayed from this, but I think if I stick with the approach of slowly practicing lines based on the melody, it will eventually become more familiar, with the end goal being solos that sound like I'm playing a particular song instead of just half-assing through the changes. A life's work, no doubt!

[wzpgsr]

There’s a useful descending line in the A sections, the 3rd descends chromatically from E to D at first, then the third time it goes down chromatically all the way from E to B (on the G7), you can get some mileage by hanging ideas around that. I think I can hear some of that in what Charlie Rouse plays. Really it seems to me that he and Monk are not worrying too much in detail about the changes, they are just sort of following the melodic descending thread somehow. Which I think you were doing too.

Yes! My ear started picking up on the descending lines as a structure for lines at some point yesterday. It was a lot easier for me to vocalize or hear lines in my head using that concept than it was to play them in real-time on the guitar. I think you've really nailed something here. This is all probably standard voice leading stuff, and using "guide tones", etc.—but I think Monk heard this stuff differently and used it in ways that are just close enough to what is standard that we can hear it...but also wacky enough that it makes it hard to just jump in. I started transcribing the first few bars of a Rouse solo and there was more than one occasion that what he was doing made little theoretical sense (to me....maybe to others it would be clear), but also sounded so damn good. Just weird little unexpected things that seem to make sense in Monk's world. Thanks for taking the time Graham!

[wzpgsr]

I thought that sounded great. I can definitely sense the melody and form, and I think you do an excellent job of referring to the harmony without overdoing or giving a sense of straining to hit the changes. Tone and recording quality are great, too. My one “criticism” is that I think it could use a little more variety of phrasing, e.g. a burst or two of 16ths or a longer run of notes here or there.

Thanks, John, I appreciate the close listen. Sixteenths notes are indeed lacking in my playing. I don't seem to have the technical facility for faster runs like I might have several years ago when I was basically just zipping around a couple of basic pentatonic shapes. I can pre-hear those 16th note bursts them in my head while improvising, but I always seem to fall off the rails technically. Something to strive for, definitely, and a bit of risk-taking is warranted. Thank you.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Apparently most soloists go for a descending line over CM7/F7 - Bb7b5 (or Bm11/Bb7). Brad Mehldau did too. It means that in every A section there are 6 of them. Here we tend to do multiple choruses... that's a lot of descending lines :-)

In the immortal words of Freddie King, “I’m goin’ down - down, down, down, down, down!”

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'm wrong, I've just corrected it. There are 9 in every A section.

That’s OK. Freddie King was only a blues guitarist

[grahambop]

I got some free time today after all, so managed a take.

[grahambop]

Yes! My ear started picking up on the descending lines as a structure for lines at some point yesterday. It was a lot easier for me to vocalize or hear lines in my head using that concept than it was to play them in real-time on the guitar. I think you've really nailed something here. This is all probably standard voice leading stuff, and using "guide tones", etc.—but I think Monk heard this stuff differently and used it in ways that are just close enough to what is standard that we can hear it...but also wacky enough that it makes it hard to just jump in. I started transcribing the first few bars of a Rouse solo and there was more than one occasion that what he was doing made little theoretical sense (to me....maybe to others it would be clear), but also sounded so damn good. Just weird little unexpected things that seem to make sense in Monk's world. Thanks for taking the time Graham!

Yes I think this is the sort of thing Peter Bernstein is on about with Monk, i.e. what is the essence of the melody and the song’s structure. Not so much worrying about every single chord change (I didn’t!).

Also it’s cool how the melody goes down to a Db in the A section, then drops one semitone to a C in the bridge and climbs back up again from there. So the A melody is descending and the B melody is ascending. I hadn’t really thought of that before, but I must have been vaguely aware of it, I can hear it in my solo.

[Triple_Jazz]

Talking about Triple_Jazz, I do hope he's okay. It's been about 2 weeks or so since he posted and he was complaining of a respiratory infection. That could be anything from something mild to Covid.

So get better soon if you're not well, Triple.



On the other hand, if you're sitting around on the porch thinking there's more to life than strumming the guitar, absolutely right!

Thanks for thinking of me. I was quite sick a couple weeks. Then of course everybody in the house was sick. Then all the stuff I had to catch up on that I missed because I was sick. Haven’t played the guitar in a few weeks now. Hoping I can relearn it and post some clips.

[ragman1]

Glad to see you back, Triple. Hope all of you have recovered now. Not much fun.

Re. guitar playing, personally I've found having a break from it can be quite inspiring :-)