dom 13b9 in a minor key...

[princeplanet]

... or at least inferring it. So, if we're in C min and the V7b9 basic chord is underneath your solo, whipping out the ol' HW diminished scale is introducing the weirdness that is the "e " note, which somehow (directly or indirectly) resolves to the min 3rd in the tonic - or does it? Even if the 13th is at the end of the bar, then it will "resolve" either to the m3rd, or the 11th (which can be kinda cool). I'm getting used to it's sound (but then - as Chuck Barris used to say - I also like warts! ).

How about you guys, do you reserve the 13th sound over dom exclusively when resolving to a major chord? And if you are resolving to a major chord, and the comping allows you a choice, do you prefer b13 anyway? I get the impression that may be the case for many, given the post 70's predilection for all things MM.

PS- I think I asked a similar question around 5 years ago, with a slightly different angle... but interested to hear new (or even changed) thoughts...

[ragman1]

If it sounds good, then it is good.

That's all, seriously.

What's wrong with this?

x5656x
xx3454
x35343

No prob at all.

[garybaldy]

Ive recently been checking out a transcription of Joe pass doing TWNBAY where he uses it in bar 4. I struggled with the idea at first but if Joe used it and it works..... well, there you have it!

[Reg]

I probable said this 10 years ago... but typically for the last 20 or so years, dom13b9, derived from Harm. Maj. has been common modal interchange or Borrowed chord, however you want to musically organize. I use the II-7b5 with nat. 9th and 13th which is also from Harm. Maj. ...

So basically you have musically organized approach for a bunch of II- V7 chords to use with MI or borrowing with Relative and parallel usage, again however you choose to approach to embellish with harmonic organization.

It's a nice or easy approach for making transitions to MM. and using Dorian as your Reference as compared to Natural Minor.

Take the time to write or notate out 5 part voicings below melodic lines.

Check out David Hazeltine's version of Barbados on Good-hearted People. Jessie van Ruller take a nice solo

[Gabor]

JVR and others own that tune. JVR is really underrated this forum. Back to the topic, I can not see where is the minor tonic in that blues progression what the OP refers to.

[Alter]

The 13 on a dominant resolving to minor is a lot more dissonant than the b13, as is the use of the half whole diminished scale.

So for me it comes down to stylistic choice. If the music at the moment is complicated enough to justify it, the diminished scale introduces four dominant chords to use on the ii-v-i movement, and is an out sounding scale.

If the music is simpler, it's b13 going to the 9.

[Reg]

Yea... I just disagree... Alter. The tune Barbados was just to help hear the use of Harmonic Maj. Which is one musical source for organizing where Dom13b9 chords or sound can imply or come from.

So some players... just added the #9 to the Dom13b9, just like back in the 60's and 70's we added the #9 to the V7b9b13 chord from Harmonic Minor.... to help get away from the Folkish sound and bring in Blue Notes.

There is nothing wrong with Folkish sounds... But they don't really imply blues.

Personally.... I hear longer sections of space. When we simplify or freeze time and pick specific moments to define what's going on Harmonically or musically, and then apply that simplified musical organization to larger sections of space... well much can be missed.

Like I said... Har. Maj is just another tool to expand harmonic movement. I tend to hear G13b9 resolving to Cmin9 as very tonal, almost vanilla. But I also tend to never just play or hear single chords.

I play and hear Chord Patterns.... even when they're not played.

[mayrandp]

Personally, I like a V13b9 (and the associated HW diminished scale usage) going to a Im chord.

At first, I though it sounded "weird" but after hearing examples in songs I started to enjoy that color and now it kind of sound "fresh" to my ears.

For example, in the song Invitation, at bars 7-9, you got a Bb7 (V7) with a G (the 13) in the melody going to a Ebm7 (Im7). To me, a Bb13b9 and HW diminished scale vocabulary works well in that context.

You can hear Ed Bickert using the following voicings in Alone Together at 0:15:
G13b9 = XX3454
Cm6/9 = XX1233

One thing that I learned from John Abercrombie, is using a V7b13 followed with a V713b9 going the Im chord. So you can have both colors on the V7, the b13 or the 13 going to the Im chord. You can hear it at 1:08 and 3:04:

Going further back, Ravel did use a B9#11b13 and also a B13b9#11 going to a Em in the last six bars of Forlane, at 5:39:

Ben Eunson using the HW diminished scale on F#7 (V7) going to Bm (Im) in Spain, at 0:38:

[ragman1]

Gosh, you know your stuff!

[princeplanet]

Personally, I like a V13b9 (and the associated HW diminished scale usage) going to a Im chord.

At first, I though it sounded "weird" but after hearing examples in songs I started to enjoy that color and now it kind of sound "fresh" to my ears.

For example, in the song Invitation, at bars 7-9, you got a Bb7 (V7) with a G (the 13) in the melody going to a Ebm7 (Im7). To me, a Bb13b9 and HW diminished scale vocabulary works well in that context.

You can hear Ed Bickert using the following voicings in Alone Together at 0:15:
G13b9 = XX3454
Cm6/9 = XX1233

One thing that I learned from John Abercrombie, is using a V7b13 followed with a V713b9 going the Im chord. So you can have both colors on the V7, the b13 or the 13 going to the Im chord. You can hear it at 1:08 and 3:04:

Going further back, Ravel did use a B9#11b13 and also a B13b9#11 going to a Em in the last six bars of Forlane, at 5:39:

Ben Eunson using the HW diminished scale on F#7 (V7) going to Bm (Im) in Spain, at 0:38:

Impressive stuff! You should post more on these forums more often!!

[Christian Miller]

... or at least inferring it. So, if we're in C min and the V7b9 basic chord is underneath your solo, whipping out the ol' HW diminished scale is introducing the weirdness that is the "e " note, which somehow (directly or indirectly) resolves to the min 3rd in the tonic - or does it? Even if the 13th is at the end of the bar, then it will "resolve" either to the m3rd, or the 11th (which can be kinda cool). I'm getting used to it's sound (but then - as Chuck Barris used to say - I also like warts! ).

How about you guys, do you reserve the 13th sound over dom exclusively when resolving to a major chord? And if you are resolving to a major chord, and the comping allows you a choice, do you prefer b13 anyway? I get the impression that may be the case for many, given the post 70's predilection for all things MM.

PS- I think I asked a similar question around 5 years ago, with a slightly different angle... but interested to hear new (or even changed) thoughts...

Funnily enough I was playing around with this today

It’s a great sound. Peter Bernstein likes it a LOT I notice. Things like 13b9 and 7#11b9 in a minor key add a real angular vibe to the harmony….

I don’t normally play the err, whole half whole scale (I do sometimes), but I do enjoy the triads that come from it. I also like the bV min7. Like Dbm7 on G7 going to Cm(maj)7 or whatever. Which tbh I think is what most people tend to like it for.

the thing is that 3 going to b3 for me is a real feature. All the greats seem to use this from time to time, and using a highly chromatic choice sets up lots of semitonal resolutions and maximises cadential efficiency for some very satisfying voice leading. The conventional choices, altered scale and diatonic minor’s dominant work great but sometimes be a bit weak sauce, depending on the music.

One thing you hear a lot of people from the 40s-60s era do is play major ii V’s going into a minor chord. This is big and clever and allows you to set up a lot of voice leading.

Sometimes you want to play smooth, sometimes you want to take the circuitous path

[Christian Miller]

Peter’s solo on this one has some of this going on, right from the start

[Rsilver]

I’m going in a totally different direction. I just try to hear cool melodies in my mind and play them by ear. If I play a dom13b9 once and then a dom13/9 next time, I wouldn’t know until afterwards when I listen to a recording. Not that I don’t know what these things are, it’s just that I believe melodies go where they want to go, not where theory demands they go.

[grahambop]

Because I learned from records back in the stone age (pre-internet), I happily play 13b9 into a minor if I think it sounds good, or major ii-V into a minor. Back then I didn’t know there was some theory reason that said you shouldn’t. I just heard guys like Wes or Joe Pass do it, so I did it (when it sounded good, not all the time).

I’m reasonably sparing with the 13b9 though, it sounds very ‘spicy’ to me so I don’t like to overdo it.

[ragman1]

I frequently use the melodic minor from the b7th of a dom - i.e. F mel m over G7 - to give the 13b9 sound. It's easier then trying to arpeggiate an E maj or E7 chord. Also it makes no difference whether it resolves to a major, minor, or dominant.

[Christian Miller]

I frequently use the melodic minor from the b7th of a dom - i.e. F mel m over G7 - to give the 13b9 sound. It's easier then trying to arpeggiate an E maj or E7 chord. Also it makes no difference whether it resolves to a major, minor, or dominant.

Theres the Warne Marsh two octave scale dominant II which is what happens when you glue a G mixolydian scale to an F melodic minor. Sounds amazing actually.

[ragman1]

Good vid, thanks.

A lot of lines (at least the way I play them) aren't very long over one bar so the question is the space needed to incorporate the F mel with the G mixo or vice versa. I suppose one could change the Bb of the F mel back to a nat B... but then that's only a b9 sound and not very dramatic.

I liked Charlie Christian's Db mel to Ab blues. Actually that's quite tricky, you have to trip your fingering.

[Gabor]

Great examples, thx for it. What Ed Bickert plays is really cool, he is avoiding voice leadin E to eb, so not explitly emphasize the major -> minor, at least not in the voice leading.

Instead he leads E to D, and the minor third eb is almost hidden one octave lower in the bass.

Ravel does a really explicit major minor alternation in his opus, it sounds integral part of that impressionist context, where augmented chords are also essential tools, and major thirds are popping up often in not in the usual way In general mood fluctuations are natural, even bar to bar, so alternating major and minor feel is also feels that way

[Gabor]

Because I learned from records back in the stone age (pre-internet), I happily play 13b9 into a minor if I think it sounds good, or major ii-V into a minor. Back then I didn’t know there was some theory reason that said you shouldn’t. I just heard guys like Wes or Joe Pass do it, so I did it (when it sounded good, not all the time).

I’m reasonably sparing with the 13b9 though, it sounds very ‘spicy’ to me so I don’t like to overdo it.

"statement-y" I would say, the E major triad is a very strong (harsh?) statement in it. Agree with the spare, repeating chorus by chorus would be "to much".

[Reg]

Yea... mayrandp...I only listened to the 1st example, Alone Together and the tune was in Gmin, not C-

"You can hear Ed Bickert using the following voicings in Alone Together at 0:15:
G13b9 = XX3454
Cm6/9 = XX1233"

And he sounded like he just use D7#9b13 going to G-9

And on the Ben Eunson example... sounded like Harmonic Maj with the #9 added'

I just check casually, but F#7... F# G A A# B C# D# or 1 b9 #9 3 11 5 13 b7

I'm not saying your approach with dim. is wrong... just the example.

The Stern and Peter thing... peter was just using MM on D- and G-

Does anyone actually listen

[djg]

Yea... mayrandp...I only listened to the 1st example, Alone Together and the tune was in Gmin, not C-

"You can hear Ed Bickert using the following voicings in Alone Together at 0:15:
G13b9 = XX3454
Cm6/9 = XX1233"

And he sounded like he just use D7#9b13 going to G-9

Does anyone actually listen

he never said it was in Cm. The change at 0:15, bar 6 of alone together, is clearly G713b9 into Cm. you might wanna take your own advice and listen a little harder...

[mayrandp]

Yea... mayrandp...I only listened to the 1st example, Alone Together and the tune was in Gmin, not C-

"You can hear Ed Bickert using the following voicings in Alone Together at 0:15:
G13b9 = XX3454
Cm6/9 = XX1233"

And he sounded like he just use D7#9b13 going to G-9

Personally, I really hear it as G13b9 (V7/IVm7) and Cm6/9 (IVm7). I know that Cm6/9 in the key of G minor is not the Im, but it's still an example of a dominant 13b9 chord resolving to a minor chord.

Bickert does something similar (G13b9 - Cm6/9) again at 0:44.

And on the Ben Eunson example... sounded like Harmonic Maj with the #9 added'

I just check casually, but F#7... F# G A A# B C# D# or 1 b9 #9 3 11 5 13 b7

I'm not saying your approach with dim. is wrong... just the example.

I suppose you could analyze Ben Eunson's line comming from the 5th mode of the harmonic major scale with the #9 added. Personally, I prefer to see it as a line using the half-whole diminished scale. Taking into account that the resolution to Bm is delayed by 2 beats in the line, every note of F# half-whole diminished scale is there.

[mayrandp]

Of the many triads and arpeggios that can be played over a dominant 13b9 chord, one that I like in particular is the major triad of the 13th (e.g. E major triad over G7). It can be a cool (albeit "spicy") sound resolving to a minor chord.

You can hear Jimmy Raney doing that in Autumn Leaves at 0:59:

[Christian Miller]

Of the many triads and arpeggios that can be played over a dominant 13b9 chord, one that I like in particular is the major triad of the 13th (e.g. E major triad over G7). It can be a cool (albeit "spicy") sound resolving to a minor chord.

You can hear Jimmy Raney doing that in Autumn Leaves at 0:59:

that’s the sound right there, nice and simple

sounds good with an F added in there too

[Christian Miller]

Good vid, thanks.

A lot of lines (at least the way I play them) aren't very long over one bar so the question is the space needed to incorporate the F mel with the G mixo or vice versa. I suppose one could change the Bb of the F mel back to a nat B... but then that's only a b9 sound and not very dramatic.

I liked Charlie Christian's Db mel to Ab blues. Actually that's quite tricky, you have to trip your fingering.

a lot of CC’s fingerings are surprisingly tricky

I think the scale in the video works best as an ascending line over a slow ii V I like Autumn leaves