dom 13b9 in a minor key...

[Christian Miller]

J

Personally, I really hear it as G13b9 (V7/IVm7) and Cm6/9 (IVm7). I know that Cm6/9 in the key of G minor is not the Im, but it's still an example of a dominant 13b9 chord resolving to a minor chord.

Bickert does something similar (G13b9 - Cm6/9) again at 0:44.


I suppose you could analyze Ben Eunson's line comming from the 5th mode of the harmonic major scale with the #9 added. Personally, I prefer to see it as a line using the half-whole diminished scale. Taking into account that the resolution to Bm is delayed by 2 beats in the line, every note of F# half-whole diminished scale is there.

I might be wrong but i would certainly expect someone likes Eunson to be thinking half-whole, it fits his background. I suppose one could ask him.

I’m also sure he knows harmonic major well.

with older players it’s often harder to pin down. You might get a bit of this scale, a bit of that. They weren’t locked into scales in the same way. Now, most fusion players (and many jazz players) start with scales and build out to chords, so their bag kind of comes out of that. It’s obviously how Holdsworth did it and he’s a such an influence even before you get to Herbie, Chick, Brecker etc

I’m probably wrong but I think of Trane as the first scale patterns guy, and he certainly liked the half whole to death.

I kind of think of it as his quirk that everyone picked up on

But I do think this sort of ‘what scale’ discussion obscures the fact that 13b9 has a history in jazz before the scale based guys came along.

You don’t need any of these scales to play 13b9: just voice leading and in this sense I don’t think belongs to either, it’s just a sound that is compatible with those two scales
…. Originally it falls out of ii V with the melody on the 3rd of the key for instance. If you want to harmonise the E at the end of all of me and have a nice bit of chromatic voice leading, the G13b9 chord is an obvious choice - Dm9 G13b9 C6.

As a Barry harris student I would say ‘major 6-dim’ (I don’t think Barry liked half whole very much.)

not exactly ‘advanced’ but clearly the chord got more independence as a sound in its own right as time wore on (as seems to be the rule with chords). You can hear Django play it on ‘Manoir de Les Reves’ with the b9 in the bass. It’s a common Django grip. (Django intuitively suggest harmonic major in his lines over it.)

People were playing US triads too… Jimmy Raney is a good example.

but 13b9 to minor? I thinking the original orchestral version of Invitation by Kaper points the way and this was in the early 50s

the voicing at around 0:23

edit: video not working. The invitation ost is available on Apple Music anyway. The chord that’s Bb13 in the real book chart and key - I hear a 13b9 there in the score

i mean why would you play 13 when you could play 13b9 anyway lol?

[ragman1]

Personally, I find the HW a bit bland :-)

[Reg]

Yea... I hear the voicing that can function as V13b9 or G13b9 of C-. That was a few seconds later, at .15 sec. was the D7b13 #9 to G-9. So... Dig I did use my ears.... but you, and I'm now seeing also Mayrandp were talking about the V of IV- ...or G13b9 of C-.... ok ,I can hear that. I can also hear it differently. The Voicing F B E Vb could be Bdim or Fdim etc. that whole symmetrical thing, half whole.
And when checked out the rest of the tune.... it was kind of the old school of typical embellish with whatever approach. Not bad... but when you start arranging or voicing out melodic lines, you need better organization..
(obviously this is personal opinion, LOL). So it really sounded like even through Ed's comping Don Thompson's improv.... was fairly consistent with targets and what he filled with, not much or the 13b9 or Dim. thing. Ed did seem to use Dim. filler etc... and lines. While I love and respect the playing, it gets muddy. The comping and soloing seem disconnected, even a little depressing... but I'm sure they know much better than I and were playing what they wanted.

[Christian Miller]

I thought the thread might enjoy this line I transcribed a while back for a website - it's from that Alone Together solo IIRC.

[princeplanet]

I thought the thread might enjoy this line I transcribed a while back for a website - it's from that Alone Together solo IIRC.

The delayed resolution (F# - F) sounds fine, right? BTW, why not call the line in the 1st bar of your example F# min7 instead of just F# min? Triadic fetish?

[Reg]

Sounds like just Amaj6 pentatonic going to Dmin. Pent. I mean it's only a couple of seconds... what does he actually do with the solo.... usually there's an actual harmonic concepts that would be developed along with one's melodic habits.
I dig Peter's Dom. Pent. usage... not hear, but in general.

[Christian Miller]

The delayed resolution (F# - F) sounds fine, right? BTW, why not call the line in the 1st bar of your example F# min7 instead of just F# min? Triadic fetish?

well YES

but also, only the first note is an E, if there were more E’s in the line I would tend to go more with the F#m7. Which of course sounds good too.

I don’t call it an A6 (Same pitches) or A major pent either as the pentatonic obviously has a B in as well, so is not the same thing. In fact, the line has a Bb in it so that’s not something that I would hear as being implied here.

what I pull from this is that it sounds great to mix F#m and F# triads in a line over A7 and of course it’s a 13b9 going to minor….

So a four note pitch set F# A Bb C#

Normally we’d just go F# on A7 for A13b9, but there’s something about a four note pitch set that I find lends itself better for melodic lines than a simple triad, but I get tired of things like seventh chords, so I’m more of a non tertial quadrad fetishist, but that’s a kink for another time.

my usual choice would be F# with an added G, but I also really like this one you’d think the A would be boring, but it’s not.

anyway, Try it.

[Reg]

Yea... you sure make simple music complicated. Voice out that simple line with voicings, or a sax section. And see what you would get.

[Irishmuso]

I mean it's only a couple of seconds... what does he actually do with the solo.... usually there's an actual harmonic concepts that would be developed along with one's melodic habits.

As Reg says, 'what does he actually do with the solo?' Have we the ability to appreciate the entire solo rather than what someone plays over half a bar? I would hope so. It is interesting to focus on one particular aspect but if we don't find out these half-bar ideas for ourselves - as Christian does - I wonder if we can ever really 'hear' them.