JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 52) - GIANT STEPS

[rpjazzguitar]

This story has no end ...
Ragman provokes with his playing and statements.
And no one talks about what means to improvise in Giant Steps.
It is a waste of time.

I posted on it in detail. #41 in this thread. Not much comment about it though.

[Clint 55]

I no like giant steps anyway. I don't like the melody, chord progression, or trying to play at 400.

[kris]

Oh, I'm happy to talk about improvising over Giant Steps.

Why do people find it so difficult? I'll tell you, not that it's not obvious. Because 99% of people are trained in functional harmony. That is, chord progressions that flow, that make sense, that are pleasantly melodic, or bluesy, or something like that.

The Giant Steps progression is obviously contrived. It's put together to demonstrate (if that's the right word) a concept whereby the keys reflect an augmented triad. Which isn't usual at all. Not only that but the bars and keys cross over into each other. Not only that, but one's supposed to play it at high speed. Apparently, as Graham pointed out, Coltrane practised it for a whole year before he could record it.

So it means you can no longer let your fingers do things semi-automatically, which they will if you're practised enough. Your brain is going to find itself tripped up at every turn. It flies in the face of good practice. It's counter-intuitive.

But, apparently, it's something we want to do. Presumably because it's there. It becomes a challenge. The trouble is there are plenty of people who can play beautifully but find themselves caught out here. So it's a quandary - do it or desert it. If you can do it you're a hero, if you desert it you're chicken, or useless.

Rather sad, isn't it? It entirely overlooks the fact that some peoples' brains work naturally faster than others. Playing extremely rapidly is easy for them, practice or no practice. Others find themselves left far behind, like a race. So it engenders winners and losers. It becomes competitive, comparative. It encourages envy. We need to do it to keep in with the in-crowd, and all that - all the sort of thinking that's the bane of this world.

So I decline, personally. But I can sort of play it in my own way. Which is good enough for me. But I've no interest in torturing myself, that's for sure.

As for actually playing it, I have no idea. There are lots of tricks and shortcuts about but basically you just have to do it till you can do it. If you think it's worth it, that is.

Deep down, I suppose I wish I could do it. I could romp through it and that would be that. But I can't, so too bad! Such is life :-)

This is ridiculous.
Giant Steps is one of the most popular jazz standards.
Recorded for the first time in 1960.
Anyone who is seriously interested in playing jazz should take the time to understand what Giant Steps is all about.
You just have to want to practice and not talk nonsense.
Let's respect time.

[Lionelsax]

About analysing a tune, I don't like sharing because every time there will be someone who will tell you you're wrong or dumb and this someone will tell you exactly the same thing you said but with different words.
As a conclusion, this someone doesn't understand what he's talking about.
Everyone can see the Moon but not a lot can walk on.

[kris]

I no like giant steps anyway. I don't like the melody, chord progression, or trying to play at 400.

This is a master class lesson played by my friend from Poland.Even when it is in Polish, you can learn a lot from it....:-)

[ragman1]

This is ridiculous.
Giant Steps is one of the most popular jazz standards.
Recorded for the first time in 1960.
Anyone who is seriously interested in playing jazz should take the time to understand what Giant Steps is all about.
You just have to want to practice and not talk nonsense.
Let's respect time.

Well, not quite ridiculous, is it? It's very popular when someone who can do it plays it! But so is any other tune. Amongst players, it's feared!

But we do understand it, it's based on the B augmented triad - B, Eb, G. That doesn't mean we can play it.

Here's something positive.

The most feared song in jazz, explained - Vox

[grahambop]

The bridge of Have You Met Miss Jones has similar chord changes to parts of Giant Steps. You have to work on that one quite a bit too since it’s not a common progression. If you can play that, it will help you get a handle on GS. Second half of GS is just ii-Vs, you just have to know where they all start (which is not that easy to remember).

I can’t play GS very fast, I’m not particularly interested in doing that. I can play some reasonable lines on it for a couple of choruses or so. I just looked at it as I do any other set of unfamiliar chord changes, I practised lines on it and at the end of each phrase, tried to find a nearby note to start the next phrase on. Eventually with enough trial and error I could get the lines to flow and connect reasonably well. Same process I did when I learned Have You Met Miss Jones.

The ideas that rpjazzguitar, ronstuff, etc. mentioned all work, I use similar ideas to simplify the approach.

I quite like what the parrot did with it, I might steal some of his licks.

[ragman1]

You know ... If this weeks tune isn't your cup of tea then it actually is an option just to sit out and let others have their fun? ... I dunno .. Just a thought

Quite right, that's the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw it. But, you know, it's the tune of the week and I haven't missed one yet. I mean, I could do something with it. I spent almost the whole of that Saturday trying it out but my poor brain objected.

I may have written that last post you quoted today but up till that point I haven't said anything negative about it at all. This is the first time. And actually I don't think negatively about it, I just think it's incredibly, and possibly unnecessarily, tortuous. Which, of course, it is.

[Clint 55]

The bridge of Have You Met Miss Jones has similar chord changes to parts of Giant Steps. You have to work on that one quite a bit too since it’s not a common progression.

I love Have You Met Mz Jones. I can flow over the bridge. All it takes is to run your exercises and don't interrupt the line when the chords change, just adjust to the new tonality.

[ragman1]

Kris -

Your Polish friend is very good. I can see what he's doing. But I can't do it, that's the thing! Not at that speed, anyway.

[ragman1]

PS. I can do Ms Jones too, not a problem. It flows and makes sense.

[kris]

Kris -

Your Polish friend is very good. I can see what he's doing. But I can't do it, that's the thing! Not at that speed, anyway.

Watch the entire video, you will understand that the tempo is not the most important thing.
And start practicing, not endless chatter.
This talk is getting nowhere.

[kris]

The bridge of Have You Met Miss Jones has similar chord changes to parts of Giant Steps. You have to work on that one quite a bit too since it’s not a common progression. If you can play that, it will help you get a handle on GS. Second half of GS is just ii-Vs, you just have to know where they all start (which is not that easy to remember).

I can’t play GS very fast, I’m not particularly interested in doing that. I can play some reasonable lines on it for a couple of choruses or so. I just looked at it as I do any other set of unfamiliar chord changes, I practised lines on it and at the end of each phrase, tried to find a nearby note to start the next phrase on. Eventually with enough trial and error I could get the lines to flow and connect reasonably well. Same process I did when I learned Have You Met Miss Jones.

The ideas that rpjazzguitar, ronstuff, etc. mentioned all work, I use similar ideas to simplify the approach.

I quite like what the parrot did with it, I might steal some of his licks.

The parrot is great ... she practiced for a long time ...

[grahambop]

The parrot is great ... she practiced for a long time ...

Actually I think the parrot was called Eric, unfortunately now deceased (according to the youtube description).

[ragman1]

Ex-parrot :-)

[grahambop]

PS. I can do Ms Jones too, not a problem. It flows and makes sense.

So you should be able to play Giant Steps. The bridge of Miss Jones is like the first part of Giant Steps. The second part of Giant Steps is just ii-Vs as found in every standard. It just needs practice to connect them up.

[grahambop]

I love Have You Met Mz Jones. I can flow over the bridge. All it takes is to run your exercises and don't interrupt the line when the chords change, just adjust to the new tonality.

Yet you don't like Giant Steps, the first half of which is similar to the bridge of Miss Jones, just done in 2 keys.

[ragman1]

Watch the entire video, you will understand that the tempo is not the most important thing.
And start practicing, not endless chatter.
This talk is getting nowhere.

I've just brought up the Ms Jones lead sheet and played the whole thing several times through without a pause. Not a problem. But I know if I tried to do the same with GS it wouldn't work. It's not because I can't play, it's because it's... what it is :-)

I'll give it another go, just for you xx

[Clint 55]

Yet you don't like Giant Steps, the first half of which is similar to the bridge of Miss Jones, just done in 2 keys.

Like I said, I don't like the melody, harmony, or tempo. I could shed it, but I'd rather work bop that I like.

[grahambop]

One difficulty is that GS goes at twice the harmonic rate i.e. 2 chords per bar compared to Miss Jones bridge which by comparison is functionally 1 chord per bar.

Not saying GS is easy, it isn't, but you can break it down into things that are more familiar from other tunes etc.

[kris]

I've just brought up the Ms Jones lead sheet and played the whole thing several times through without a pause. Not a problem. But I know if I tried to do the same with GS it wouldn't work. It's not because I can't play, it's because it's... what it is :-)

I'll give it another go, just for you xx

I already have enough of it ...

[kris]

Like I said, I don't like the melody, harmony, or tempo. I could shed it, but I'd rather work bop that I like.

I like melody,harmony and tempo.
I can listen to Coltrane for hours.
I love JAZZ!

[Clint 55]

I like melody,harmony and tempo.

I can listen to Coltrane for hours.
I love JAZZ!

The rendition in the video you posted was outstanding. I really liked the different rhythms but that still suited the song.

[kris]

One difficulty is that GS goes at twice the harmonic rate i.e. 2 chords per bar compared to Miss Jones bridge which by comparison is functionally 1 chord per bar.

Not saying GS is easy, it isn't, but you can break it down into things that are more familiar from other tunes etc.

Giant Steps is difficult.
You can try to play it and it is the most valuable.
Question - is there anyone who can play it better like Coltrane ...?

[ragman1]

I already have enough of it ...

Thank god